Kerry-Edwards or Bush-Cheney?

[katkillad]

It doesn't really matter...I don't believe there is a right answer.  I am definately on the conservative side and I would more than likely vote republican.  However, I am not going to be pissed off if a democrate is our president.  I think in general we should respect whomever our leader is.  

On the other hand, I believe our government does a lot of wrong things.  I just don't put the blame on a single person.  We may have a president, but that does not mean he makes all the decisions and he is  not influenced and advised by other people.  Politics are full of handouts and favors.    

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

ah, but therein lies the rub:  if the President and his cabinet dictate policy (through executive orders and not through legislation), then ultimately they are responsible for the consequences of those policies.  if it's legislated (like it is supposed to be), then the system of "checks and balances" applies and both branches are responsible.

it is the singular minded approach that this administration has taken since day one that calls me to arms.  I agree that the office should be respected, that's a given.

I just don't think that the person in this office regards us with the same respect, and that is problematic for me.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Kat, I do respect your point of view, so don't take what I just said as an attack.  We like it civil here and I did NOT mean to offend in any way...so I apologize in advance if I did.

[MMJ_fanatic]

It doesn't really matter...I don't believe there is a right answer.  I am definately on the conservative side and I would more than likely vote republican.  However, I am not going to be pissed off if a democrate is our president.  I think in general we should respect whomever our leader is.  

On the other hand, I believe our government does a lot of wrong things.  I just don't put the blame on a single person.  We may have a president, but that does not mean he makes all the decisions and he is  not influenced and advised by other people.  Politics are full of handouts and favors.    

yup x 2.  I am terribly annoyed with both sides of the political process.  moreso with the libs because of the level of hypocrisy and dishonesty they show.  for instance--are all the swift boat veterans for truth are lying and Kerry is the only truthful one?  the level of spin that surrounds these people is dizzying and I am still feeling the effects of the sickening amount of spin that came out of Clinton's camp--he even let his own wife maintain the "vast right wing conspiracy" illusion while in fact he had committed the acts he was confronted with.  meanwhile what does he do while the situation is developing?  lob some missiles into the desert to make it look like he is a big terrorist hunter.  I feel like what is fair game for them is hollered, screamed, and cried about when the same approach is fired back at them.  why should Bush denounce the ads by these veterans--I didn't see Kerry denounce Whoopi Goldberg when she tore into President Bush.  neo-cons piss me off too with all their bluster and tough talk, too reactionary.  this is not a good year for politics American style but in the end it is still the greatest country and I'm glad I live here and not some place where I have to give up 90% of my paycheck.  I know I sound like an 'incurable' but I am actually a registered independent :D

[katkillad]

Kat, I do respect your point of view, so don't take what I just said as an attack. We like it civil here and I did NOT mean to offend in any way...so I apologize in advance if I did.

Not offended of course.  I wish my typing would stop comming across as korean with my H's an I's...

Obviously, i've never been a government official and I don't know 100% of everything that goes on.  I guess I buy too much into the fact that we don't really know everything that our government partakes in and I feel like they withhold a lot of information.  So I base my thoughts a little on conspiracy.  I have not been excited about a candidate since Alan Keyes.  I really don't agree with what Bush has been doing...however I assume there is some underlying meaning to it regardless if it is right or wrong.  At the same time I don't believe Kerry can run this country.  I just find him inadequate for my own personal reasons.

( here comes the opinions only section )

I think if this war would have happend 60 years ago Saddam would have been considered a lesser version of Hitler.  At that point in time our country was truely united.  We would have been helping out a country for the good of humanity and not for our own personal reasons.  If it would have happened 30 yeas ago it would have been another viet nam.  Our country has gradually become more independent and we have been forming our own decisions.  This war that has been taking place has only caused conflict for us in my opinion.  It seems like the United States is in a battle of Democrates vs. Republicans.  This has helped with getting more people out there to vote, which I support even though I disagree with the electoral college, but it leaves a lot of our country with a loss of respect.  If Bush wins then all the Kerry supporters are going to dislike everything that goes on and visa versa.

I guess my main arguement is was there is a lack of support "in general."  Followed up by me disliking our government and the ways I think it opperates incorrectly.  I see what you are saying with the presidents cabinet and his administration.  There is just so much conflict and miscommunication that we hear about on tv that makes me wonder that something has to be going on.  I just don't put all the blame on our President.    

end rant...  I LOVE MY MORNING JACKET!!!!!

[alex]

I wish my typing would stop comming across as korean with my H's an I's...

I do hope that this is some sort of keyboard problem you're having.

[katkillad]

I wish my typing would stop comming across as korean with my H's an I's...

I do hope that this is some sort of keyboard problem you're having.

Can you guys see it also?  I downloaded a few korean based programs on my computer and for some reason when i post in boards now it gives me crap sometimes

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

yo, send Riny an IM to check to see if the code here is the culprit...

[CC]

Korean Hs and Is?
I really don't see it.
What would that look like anyway  ???

[havibulin]

i'm voting for willie.

[katkillad]

yes...i see the light.  We should all write willie nelson in.  I think they should send you a letter or something if someone wrote you in.

[MMJ_fanatic]

well, if anything it sure would make the campaign more interesting than it is now...

[lfish]

Willie's awesome.

I believe they made a movie of him, not? free willie.


Anyway,

I hate it to hear that bush is a few points ahead in the polls.

I can't believe that people doesn't or won't see the incapability and the sillyness of this president.

Here in Europe, everyone (and that is no exageration) is considering Bush as one of the worst US presidents.  That can count for something...

And believe me, we have a far more objective view on this matter, simply because we're not americans.

I recently read that even the big newschannels, like Fox, aren't telling things right.  Sometime they withhold important information and do not fully explain the real consequences of Bush's policy.  Bush said in his inauguration speech of the year 2000 to unify and not to divide America.  Well if we look to America today, that one is one big lie.


Once again,

Be a democrat, republican or independant, but help the world and yourself:
Do not vote Bush.

[antoniostrohs]

Amen to that Brother Ifish.

[lfish]

Oh btw, I also heard some voices saying that with another four years of bush, fascism is gradually taking over America.

I do not completely agree with this point of view, because there are a lot of intelligent people in America who will oppose to this threat, but nevertheless it holds some truth and danger.

One of the biggest threats right now is nationalism. Republicans are using this theme ( with national security on top) to influence and manipulate people.  It's very difficult, when once accused for being anti-nationalistic, to refute this accusation.

Here in Belgium, it sometimes occurs, that when having a discussion with someone with a different skincolor, this person is immediately saying your a racist.  

This accusation is so hard and so difficult to refute that when others hear this, they won't be easily convinced of your innocence.  

It's the same with nationalism.

So far my plea

[MMJ_fanatic]

Oh btw, I also heard some voices saying that with another four years of bush, fascism is gradually taking over America.

I do not completely agree with this point of view, because there are a lot of intelligent people in America who will oppose to this threat, but nevertheless it holds some truth and danger.

One of the biggest threats right now is nationalism. Republicans are using this theme ( with national security on top) to influence and manipulate people.  It's very difficult, when once accused for being anti-nationalistic, to refute this accusation.

Here in Belgium, it sometimes occurs, that when having a discussion with someone with a different skincolor, this person is immediately saying your a racist.  

This accusation is so hard and so difficult to refute that when others hear this, they won't be easily convinced of your innocence.  

It's the same with nationalism.

So far my plea

refuting the charge that you are a racist is quite a simple manner:  use the DICTIONARY definition--a doctrine or teaching, without scientific support, that claims to find racial differences in character, intelligence, etc., that asserts the superiority of one race over another or others--straight out of Websters!  

as far as FASCISM, I again turn to Websters:  a system of government characterized by rigid, one party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized government control, belligerent nationalism, racism, militarism.  I don't know if you've ever visited the US but we don't have tanks running through the streets, like some places I could name, to ensure the party line is towed.  yes we did institute the patriot act, after 9/11 which was a major new chapter in our history, but we needed a new approach to ensure our intelligence community has the tools necessary to prevent anymore such chapters appearing in our history--3000+ civilians dead is more than enough--and there is not one instance of the patriot act being abused/used inappropriately--try to find one.  the only Fascists we have here are skinheads/nazis--whose existence is allowed thanks to the FREEDOM of our society--and the ACLU who is on a mission to remove any type of value system our founding fathers followed in the organization of our country and government.

It is true that national security is a top issue, but I think there are plenty of intelligent people who can figure out who will best maintain our security.  there is so much coverage worldwide of what terrorist are capable of and I, for one, do not want the streets of my town to look the way the streets of Israel or Palestine look on any given day.
whew!  'nuff said

[lfish]

I, for one, do not want the streets of my town to look the way the streets of Israel or Palestine look on any given day.

I don't think that will happen. But fact is that the patriot act is a fargoing measure to "secure" america.  The things happening in Guantanomo or Abu Ghraib is not really relevant for the government.  Civil rights and humanity is subordinate to "security".  And can you say, right now, that America has become a safer place, which was one of the biggest goals of mr W. ?

A majority of the musulmans hate America. With the measures taken by mr bush, this number is only increasing. America isn't popular in the world, any more.

Fasciscm begins with isolation.

And also, by fascism I don't mean the nice explanation of your dictionary, sometimes fascism is far more subtile than tanks running in the streets.

Nah, also nice put.  ;)

[havibulin]

private economic enterprise under centralized government control

straight from the dictionary.

I am willing to give a little when it comes to national security if it means removing a president with his own agenda.

and f the media as far as i am concerned. they have turned it into a complete 3 ring circus. we now only hear what the media wants us to hear.

[marktwain]

The charges of Racism and Fascism are exaggerations, hyperbole, which only make people angry and do not help anything. Clearly Bush isn't Hitler or Mussolini.

However, the way the current administration operates seems to be unconstitutional an unAmerican.  Guantanamo is a perfect example.  Holding prisoners without charging them by finding a loophole in the law (Gitmo is not technically the USA).  Here's another example: 'Free Speech Zones' which keep protesters away from the people who need to hear the protests.

As far as this:

there is not one instance of the patriot act being abused/used inappropriately--try to find one.  

It is hard to find instances because the PATRIOT Act allows for so much secrecy.  Here is one instance: one of the most publicized and most controversial clauses allows the gov't to search someone's library records.  Dick 'Halliburton' Cheney, when he came to Louisville, claimed this clause had never been used.  But the director of the local library says he has been approached by law enforcement who requested patron records.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

well, i have to say that mr tundra is right on about the patriot act...that DID occur here in louisville (or so we're told, but who would make this up?)

thing is, and he's right again on this...due to the "secrecy" surrounding this nonsense, we may never know what is happening.  we only know what we're told, and that ain't much.

this GITMO business is appalling.  i don't care what we think they've done, we are AMERICA and no one should be held without trial or without seeing a lawyer.  what are we afraid of?  that we'll find out that this net we've cast has caught innocent people?

abuse of power is unacceptable.  we need to turn back the clock and remember what the constitution is and what it stands for.  "innocent until proven guilty" isn't just a slogan, it's a credo we built our justice system on.  to somehow circumvent this in the name of "security" or whatever horseshit excuse they've dreamt up this week smacks of, well....evil.  if americans were held somewhere in the world like this (and they probably are, for all we know) we would send bombers, troops, ships, anything to get them out.  we would scream long and hard at the "injustice" of being held without a trial.  guess that's okay when we do it, though...do as I say, not as I do?

I tire of the debate on whether this is right or wrong.  Some things are definitely WRONG, and what we are doing here is.  No amount of justification can assuage my fears on this subject, as there isn't any reality where this is acceptable.  

Our shotgun blast crap on the Geneva Accords is also mind boggling and worrysome.  If our troops or civilians or whatever you want to classify these souls as were being held like this somewhere, we would be pissed to the nth power.

We have taken a dangerous turn down a path that has been proven, throughout history, to be fraught with terrible things.  Haven't we learned any lessons from previous wars?  Who are we to turn upside down the lessons of the past?  We forget so quickly how many died so that we can have this nice conversation right now, and at the same time, we spit in their faces to extend the single minded agendas of our so called leaders.  Who profits and who dies?  "War Pigs" by Black Sabbath should be our national anthem these days.  "Politicans hide themselves away...they only started the war...why should they go out to fight?  they leave all that to the poor."

With Bush hiding at his ranch and pretending to run the country while sons and daughters of America die for nothing more than smoke and mirrors disgusts me.  As a veteran myself, this is NOT what our military is for-it is for the defense of our country.  Here, on our borders.  While we're busy galavanting across the globe, 9/11 happened.  That fact alone should cause anyone to pause and say "dude, WTF?"