first black president or first woman V.P.

[Penny Lane]

Life begins at conception, so in my opinion abortion is the termination of life. Obama is an extremist when it comes to abortion. Some folks are fine with that, but as a Christian I'm not.

I'm confused...you say that, as a Christian, you object to the termination of life, yet you find it insulting when Obama points out that it would be better if 'we have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages & killing civilians' How is that comment, in your own words, "insulting remarks about our military"?
So you don't agree that NOT killing innocent civilians would be a good thing? Surely the military would rather they weren't killing innocent civilians? I'm surprised that anyone would find that comment offensive, especially someone who claims to 'object to the termination of life'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7625167.stm

Dboy i think i'm w/ewok on this one--even though that is pretty much what happened- i don't think it was a good thing to say/not offensive but i think he has a responsibility to the military to not make specific statements like that.

[purvis9876]

As a tax paying citizen of the USA, you support abortion by paying taxes; you support a government that has legalized killing babies (in your opinion), and you give that governement (willingly and knowingly) your money that says you support the laws of the land, one of which is abortion is LEGAL. Doesn't really seem like it's that big of a moral dilema in the first palce.     What a Christian you are.

OK, I'm going to have to call Bull Shit on that one Tracy.   By this rationale, if I don't believe in any single law in this country, instead of working to try to change it, I should just move to another country.  What if there are no countries that stand for every single thing that I do?  Should I go to the moon?  Or I guess I would just have to jump off a bridge and martyr myself?

Or just be a secessionist?

I don't think anyone is taking Tracy seriously, anymore.

But don't you think that Letterman's question about G. Gordon Liddy was fair?

Why would you assume that? McCain isn't my candidate, by the way, I'm just sure he won't fuck the country as bad as Obama would.

So Barack Hussein Obama can't sit on a board (with prominent Republicans by the way) with a washed-up terrorist...

I wasn't referring to Ayers, but yeah, him, too.

P.S. You're a racist for stating Obama's name.

Our money will either be spent on a war, which McCain will not stop, or will be redistributed to everyone. I am not a fan of either of these, but I can say that the second one is "fucking up our country" less. As much as I despise the government, I would much rather have someone in office who will stop an unjust war, while spending money out of his ass and giving more power to the central gov't; than to have a person in there who will continue to fund this war on "terrorism" which can never be won. IMO, they both suck.

[purvis9876]

Life begins at conception, so in my opinion abortion is the termination of life. Obama is an extremist when it comes to abortion. Some folks are fine with that, but as a Christian I'm not.

I'm confused...you say that, as a Christian, you object to the termination of life, yet you find it insulting when Obama points out that it would be better if 'we have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages & killing civilians' How is that comment, in your own words, "insulting remarks about our military"?
So you don't agree that NOT killing innocent civilians would be a good thing? Surely the military would rather they weren't killing innocent civilians? I'm surprised that anyone would find that comment offensive, especially someone who claims to 'object to the termination of life'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7625167.stm

I'm all together against the termination of human life....... except for those "towel heads"...... and capital punishment, I'm for that too...... oh and also I don't really mind people being tortured.....But besides those things, I'm COMPLETELY against the termination of human life.  ;D

[fitzcarraldo]

[quote

but I can say that the second one is "fucking up our country" less. As much as I despise the government, I would much rather have someone in office who will stop an unjust war, while spending money out of his ass and giving more power to the central gov't; than to have a person in there who will continue to fund this war on "terrorism" which can never be won. IMO, they both suck.


[/quote]

amen

http://www.votenader.org/  

5 percent of the vote = Independent Party gets to debate 2012.

[Penny Lane]

it won't matter-we will be pulling our troops out of iraq and sending them right over to afghanistan--which is even more of a mess--and already the UK/Canada and some euros (the Dutch) are intending to pull some of their troops--the burden will fall our tax dollars inevitably.

the good thing about electing obama--he'll be able to get some stuff through congress thanks to majority dems

the scary thing about electing obama--he'll be able to get some stuff through congress thanks to majority dems

[Angry Ewok]

[...]than to have a person in there who will continue to fund this war on "terrorism" which can never be won. IMO, they both suck.

In some ways, the war on terror is a lot like the war on drugs.

I'm all together against the termination of human life....... except for those "towel heads"...... and capital punishment, I'm for that too...... oh and also I don't really mind people being tortured.....But besides those things, I'm COMPLETELY against the termination of human life.  ;D

Nice.  ;D

[dragonboy]

Life begins at conception, so in my opinion abortion is the termination of life. Obama is an extremist when it comes to abortion. Some folks are fine with that, but as a Christian I'm not.

I'm confused...you say that, as a Christian, you object to the termination of life, yet you find it insulting when Obama points out that it would be better if 'we have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages & killing civilians' How is that comment, in your own words, "insulting remarks about our military"?
So you don't agree that NOT killing innocent civilians would be a good thing? Surely the military would rather they weren't killing innocent civilians? I'm surprised that anyone would find that comment offensive, especially someone who claims to 'object to the termination of life'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7625167.stm

Dboy i think i'm w/ewok on this one--even though that is pretty much what happened- i don't think it was a good thing to say/not offensive but i think he has a responsibility to the military to not make specific statements like that.

Like I said, it was a 12 sec clip...so how can we even really discuss this? We don't know the full context & we don't know what was said before or after...using edited clips from Fox 'News' to try & put your point across is a bit of a joke really, isn't it?

Anyway, my initial point wasn't regarding the clip or Obama's comments, it was regarding Angry's pro-life stance in relation to him getting offended when Obama points out that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong & that something must be done to stop it from happening. He is quick to defend the troops but where is his empathy for the people of Iraq, in particular the 1000's of innocent people who lost their lives & the families left behind? Pro-life? Good for you but what happened to 'thou shall kill'? No wonder the insurgency is rising...

Hey look here's a good book:

[Angry Ewok]

Anyway, my initial point wasn't regarding the clip or Obama's comments, it was regarding Angry's pro-life stance in relation to him getting offended when Obama points out that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong[...]

That wasn't what Obama said, and it wasn't his point. He said that air-raiding villages and killing citizens is just what our troops were doing until we could pour more troops into the Middle East to get the job done. (So, this is from one of his pro-surge speeches, I guess?) Anyway, His words, with or without Fox News.

[red]

Hopefully this lightens the mood in this thread...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLVSURlFoQs[/media]

[dragonboy]

Anyway, my initial point wasn't regarding the clip or Obama's comments, it was regarding Angry's pro-life stance in relation to him getting offended when Obama points out that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong[...]

That wasn't what Obama said, and it wasn't his point. He said that air-raiding villages and killing citizens is just what our troops were doing until we could more troops in the Middle East to get the job done. (So, this is from one of his pro-surge speeches, I guess?) Anyway, His words, with or without Fox News.

& you interpret his words as him insulting the military, what I interpret from his words, as a potential commander in chief, is that he is strong enough & proud enough to acknowledge his countries mistakes, to acknowledge that changes need to be made & point out that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong.
You interpret his use of the word 'just' as meaning 'that's the only thing they (the military) are doing'...because that's what Fox 'News' & the poster of that clip on youtube wanted you to interpret...I don't think that's what he meant at all.

More importantly though, it saddens me that you chose to comment on this part of my post rather than responding to my question regarding your empathy towards the people of Iraq...should we presume that you don't have any then?

Please don't think me rude for disappearing, it's nearly 4:00an here so I'm off to bed  :)

[media]http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFNTRaXRiI[/media]

[dragonboy]

Hopefully this lightens the mood in this thread...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLVSURlFoQs[/media]

;D ;D ;D

[ycartrob]

As a tax paying citizen of the USA, you support abortion by paying taxes; you support a government that has legalized killing babies (in your opinion), and you give that governement (willingly and knowingly) your money that says you support the laws of the land, one of which is abortion is LEGAL. Doesn't really seem like it's that big of a moral dilema in the first palce.     What a Christian you are.

OK, I'm going to have to call Bull Shit on that one Tracy.   By this rationale, if I don't believe in any single law in this country, instead of working to try to change it, I should just move to another country.  What if there are no countries that stand for every single thing that I do?  Should I go to the moon?  Or I guess I would just have to jump off a bridge and martyr myself?

I'm not talking about the speed limit or term limits for presidents, I can live with that stuff, I am saying this to those who really believe babies are being murdered.

If you feel your government is killing innocent people (and I'm not talking about casualties of war) how do you continue to support them? If you really think it's killing a baby, yet you do nothing more than gripe about it and vote, then I think you're not being genuine.

[ycartrob]

ewok, do you think homosexuality is a sin?

Or will you dodge this question too?

come on man, have some balls and answer the question

[Angry Ewok]

Why ask me? Read the book.

[ycartrob]

Why ask me? Read the book.

Have some balls man, we're talking about your faith here and you dodge the question. Grow a pair and answer the question (for the 3rd time)

[Angry Ewok]

It's not a dodge. You should read the book. You'll enjoy it.

[ycartrob]

It's not a dodge. You should read the book. You'll enjoy it.

I have read it, I don't think it's a sin, just like I don't think eating pork or shellfish is unholy.

I was asking you what you thought, but nevermind.

[red]

I've never read the book, but I heard the movie is better.  

[Angry Ewok]

I've never read the book, but I heard the movie is better.  

;D

That's a good one, K.

[Crispy]

I don't think Obama's point from that youtube bite was to insult or criticize troops - it was criticizing military strategy and policy concerning the "war on terror", specifically that air raids and smart bombs are still going to kill more civilians than terrorists. And Brad is absolutely correct that this war is like the war on drugs, except that it's completely the same! It's an open-ended war, which can not possibly have an ending where one side surrenders. The other side is not a nation or a government, they're just a bunch of disconnected, semi-organized, murderous thugs, and they are not going to just give up. They must be combated as special criminals - you can't expect to end crime, but you do hope to stop known conspirators before they strike, and be prepared to react properly if they do. Invasions and the blind hope of converting other societies to democracy are not going to do a damn bit of good at fighting terrorism - multilateral special operations police forces would be much more effective at neutralizing threats which represent a tiny percentage of civilized population.

Penny, I tried to point out in my post that distributing wealth directly from the rich to the poor should not be the goal of this government, and I think Obama's hope is increase the common good through the means I stated, not just handing the money to the poor. I suppose using more of the wealth from those who can afford it easier than those who can't is somewhat economically socialistic, but it is a far cry from actual socialism, which aims to remove all wealth from everyone and advocates government ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of all goods and services. Also, higher tax rates for wealthier people have been a fact of life since the beginning of income tax in America, at plunderous rates in the 20's and 50's way higher than would be faced in an Obama administration, and under both conservative and liberal administrations. And did the wealthy shrivel up and die from the taxman then? No, they prospered as ever, but hid their money in tax dodges and shelters, which will continue to happen for anyone making enough money to hire a good tax attorney. I would love to see a system where individuals are taxed at the same rate (or not at all) on their income, with taxes on goods and services and proper enforcement of corporate taxes making up the difference, with the complete removal of systems for the wealthy to avoid payment. I view this society as getting what you pay for, and you've got to pay in to get something out, which for me is to enjoy life in what is still the most stable, secure, and free land in the world. Jeez, I sound like a politician. I wouldn't turn down a pay raise or an opportunity to make much more money just because I would be then be paying more taxes, would you?