The Gun Debate

[Shug]

Thanks, zanjam.  Its all okay, this time anyway.  Before school, a janitor saw an older man in a trenchcoat with a handgun.  Not sure what happened, but he got away, was not apprehended.  No shots were fired.  Our kids are kinda freaked out, as you can imagine.  I'm freaked out, I hate this stuff.  I find my nerves are kinda frayed and I'm easily irritated this week.  Think of what this climate of fear does to people who are already on the edge, its downright scary, with copycats out there and people sending their kids to school with guns.  I'm really getting upset with this situation.

[exist10z]

This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired.  Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school.  That's all the info we have right now.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America.  To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place.  America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.

Indeed.  After considering all the scenarios and seeing all the statistics (legal guns, illegal guns, types of guns, suicides, homicides, crime, proper storage, sport, hunting, accidents, etc.), I have yet to hear a question where the best answer is more guns or lessened regulation.  Or even the old standby 'enforce the laws we have!', much of the carnage, especially accidents, suicides, domestic homicides and mass shootings, are caused by perfectly legal guns: guns that no one would consider 'bad' and by gun owners that no one would have considered 'mentally unstable' at time of purchase. 

[YimYodd]

 



Add to the list. 

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 
First Posted: December 19, 2012 - 6:16 am
BLOOMINGTON, Indiana — Police say six guns were removed from the home of a Bloomington youth who threatened a copycat school shooting, while students in two other Indiana cities have been arrested for making school violence threats

Bloomington police say the Bloomington South High School student is undergoing an evaluation after telling another student on Monday he had a gun in his locker. The Herald-Times reports police say a search found he had no weapons at school and that the seized guns didn't belong to him.


     

[YimYodd]

   NEXT!......Not far from my friends' place.

Alabama Shakes lead singer robbed in Nashville

    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Brittany Howard of the Alabama Shakes is unharmed after being robbed at gunpoint over the weekend.

Nashville police say Howard and four others that included members of the Brooklyn-based band Clear Plastic Masks were robbed Sunday night in east Nashville by two unidentified teens wearing hoodies.

Howard and the Shakes are up for three Grammy Awards in February, including best new artist, after releasing their debut album "Boys & Girls" earlier this year. A spokeswoman says the 24-year-old singer from Athens, Ala., has no comment.

The thieves were both armed with handguns and stole cellphones and a small amount of cash, but didn't harm anyone before taking off. Some of the items were found a short time later at a nearby park.

[manonthemoon]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

Well said!  I own two guns both for hunting/household protection.  There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind.  You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder.  I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere.  I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory".  I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.

I completely agree with you both.  I see nothing wrong with people having the right to own rifles used for hunting or even handguns used for protecting your home.  But why in the hell is there any need to own any sort of auto or semi-auto assault rifle?  Why the hell did the mother of this lunatic feel the need to own those weapons?  Protection???  Yeah, they protected her so well she's now DEAD!  She too probably thought she had properly stored her guns!

As for arming teachers in school?  I also am not in favor of this, although, I would not be against maybe allowing the principal of the shool to be armed if there wasn't armed security on the premises.  I just look to the Sandy Hook Elementary principal who was defenseless and unarmed and still lunged at the shooter to try to stop him and I think how things might have been different had he been able to defend herself with a gun?

Yeah I can't get behind automatic weapons as they are intended for assault purposes as that is what they are designed for.  I would however be in favor of at least one police officer at every school for added security, but wouldn't be too comfortable with the principal having a weapon on the grounds.

I think one thing that gets overlooked by reading a lot of these comments is rural america, like where I grew up outside of a small town.  The closest police station was probaby 15 minutes away and with a response time even slower.  Most people do own guns for home protection out of necessity as you never know what can happen.  With that said living in a city now I feel no need to own a handgun, but if I lived where I was raised I probably would as a fall back plan.  Granted I do come from a family with a few state troopers and military officers who taught me to shoot at a very young age.

[Mr. White]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

Well said!  I own two guns both for hunting/household protection.  There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind.  You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder.  I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere.  I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory".  I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.

I completely agree with you both.  I see nothing wrong with people having the right to own rifles used for hunting or even handguns used for protecting your home.  But why in the hell is there any need to own any sort of auto or semi-auto assault rifle?  Why the hell did the mother of this lunatic feel the need to own those weapons?  Protection???  Yeah, they protected her so well she's now DEAD!  She too probably thought she had properly stored her guns!

As for arming teachers in school?  I also am not in favor of this, although, I would not be against maybe allowing the principal of the shool to be armed if there wasn't armed security on the premises.  I just look to the Sandy Hook Elementary principal who was defenseless and unarmed and still lunged at the shooter to try to stop him and I think how things might have been different had he been able to defend herself with a gun?

Yeah I can't get behind automatic weapons as they are intended for assault purposes as that is what they are designed for. I would however be in favor of at least one police officer at every school for added security, but wouldn't be too comfortable with the principal having a weapon on the grounds.

I think one thing that gets overlooked by reading a lot of these comments is rural america, like where I grew up outside of a small town.  The closest police station was probaby 15 minutes away and with a response time even slower.  Most people do own guns for home protection out of necessity as you never know what can happen.  With that said living in a city now I feel no need to own a handgun, but if I lived where I was raised I probably would as a fall back plan.  Granted I do come from a family with a few state troopers and military officers who taught me to shoot at a very young age.

I think you are on it, manonthemoon! More police on the beat!

[jaye]

I actually thought the NRA folks were going to suggest something helpful.

great response: https://twitter.com/davidfrum

[GO4IT]

I actually thought the NRA folks were going to suggest something helpful.

great response: https://twitter.com/davidfrum

Yeah, pretty disappointing.

I thought this was the NRA's bogeyman in the first place - a tyrannical government with guns that they would have to be capable of taking down with more guns.

[Mr. White]

America! Fuck yeah!

American Guns Tease | NEW Series Premiering Monday, October 10, 2011 at 10PM e/p

Bonus Feature from Jackie Brown

Chicks With Guns

[e_wind]

Have you all seen this Marine who went to stand guard outside of a school, and is now facing 5yrs in prison? I mean, sucks for him, but I'm shocked by how many people support him and MILITARY FUCKING PROTECTION outside all schools. This is mental, and terrifying.

[jaye]

Have you all seen this Marine who went to stand guard outside of a school, and is now facing 5yrs in prison? I mean, sucks for him, but I'm shocked by how many people support him and MILITARY FUCKING PROTECTION outside all schools. This is mental, and terrifying.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/2012/12/21/on-video-marine-caught-lying-about-his-service/
yeah just what I want at my kids school.    Besides lying he said "if a gunman comes into this school, I'm not going to kill him, I'm going to drag him out of here and let the law deal with him".  Um, ok. 

[davymac]

As a hunter and recreational target shooter, I'm pro-gun.  However, I'm all for beefing up the background checks.  I firmly believe in my right to protect myself, as well as enjoy my hobby.  Also, since they essentially banned guns in Chicago in 1980's the murder rate has gone up-928 in 1991 and there have been over 500 just this year (up since 2008).

It is no mystery how guns are made/operate, they have been around for hundreds of years, what would the government have gunsmiths do all over the country, simply forget their trade?

In 2010 8 kids were murdered with a knife in China, we can't ban knives?  I don't think you can stop crazy/evil people with bad intentions (even the Aurora shooter had managed to wire a bomb in his apartment).

Again, I do believe we should increase background checks etc. but I think its time for people to be held accountable for their actions.

[davymac]

Thought this is relevant, perhaps even scary?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow

Can't help but wonder how long before the average person is able to afford or get access to 3D printers...

[Tracy 2112]

WATCH: Hyper-Pro-Gun Activist's Argument Gets Destroyed By Smart Lady's Calm Decency



http://www.upworthy.com/watch-hyper-pro-gun-activists-argument-gets-destroyed-by-smart-ladys-calm-decenc?c=ufb1

[el_chode]

Working in newark makes me realize the debate is really about how outraged people get when guns leave the inner city.


I'm a bit disappointed because I can almost predict exist10z's reply to this post, and it'd be good.

[rincon2]

This debate is almost futile. There is a well established culture of private gun ownership in this country. It is like a tattoo. I know many people, mostly old friends from high school on Facebook, that are so pro gun that nothing will convince them that any more control over guns is anything less that the government taking control, and leaving them vulnerable to the governments control. The argument they will give about automatic weapons and high capacity  clips is reenforce by the media, whether it be The Walking Dead, or some imagined totalitarian state where they need defense from their own government. The latter is far more realistic, but in my mind does not justify the risk of human killing machines being available to anyone who wants them. I am 51, have never owned a gun, but am considering purchasing a Henry .22 lever action rifle. It is not due to paranoia about the government, if they are really trying to kill me, I give up. It is not for home protection, the stats verify it is more likely to end in a tragedy than "killing the bad guys". It would be because I find it to be a work of art and a tool for enjoyment. I also would rather teach my sons about gun safety and responsibility, than them going out and just buying something on their own without any training. Plus, if the Zombie Apocalypse does happen, I will pick off a few, before I become some brainless creatures dinner. The bottom line is this country is VERY split on this subject, and whatever actions, or inaction, are taken, at least 40% of the population is going to be pissed. that is why I feel this problem is not going to be resolved in our lifetime.  Comprehensive background checks and restrictions on clip capacity are fucking no brainers. One set of the 40% may not have a brain.

[rincon2]

As far as the mental health aspect of this issue goes, it is a red herring. I have 30 years experience in the mental health field. The last 22 years as a crisis evaluator for involuntary psychiatric admissions. The guy in Tucson fits the best profile for involuntary confinement, because he was clearly nuts, but there is NO LAW AGAINST BEING CRAZY IN ANY STATE. You have to be determined to be a threat due to mental illness, and these killers don't show their hand. The real facts are there are 300 million people in this country, a significant percentage have mental illness, like at least 10 million, and their is no possible way to prevent these instances of violence from happening by mental health screenings. The only involuntary treatment available is if someone meets state regulated criteria for danger to self (suicidal), danger to others due to mental illness( not criminal intent), and gravely disabled due to mental illness, which is extraordinarily subjective. No one I know in my field knows exactly what better mental health care availability as being a factor in helping to prevent these tragedies from happening really means. If someone is able to function enough to keep themselves from being forcibly hospitalized, they can do whatever they choose. Bottom line is gun control restrictions, as well as more mental health options (but just what are they?) are both required, but both of these are very sensitive and volatile issues.    P.S. The MMJ video from Austin 2003 rocks!!

[el_chode]

My solution is to ignore it. It always seems to be a cry for attention/revenge to get people to see how the shooter was wronged. Notice we keep getting spikes while we keep paying attention. These people are trolls.


Compare to my experience in Newark and surrounding areas. Kids typically have unlimited access to guns (with extended mags and special bullets) and are no stranger to violence (despite NJ having the second most restrictive gun laws in the country). Why don't we see school shootings in these areas? True, we see many out of school shootings, often by young kids (google "Schoolyard Slayings"). Yes, we often write it off as "more ghetto violence", but the way I see i, either we only care when it hits the suburbs, or "gun control" is a straw man put forth by people who forget how poorly any sort of commodity or product prohibition is. As a result, we solve nothing by focusing on the wrong issues.