Clean and sober

[Tracy 2112]

The news of Amy Winehouse makes me sad; even though I was not a fan. I got over 20 years clean and sober and still struggle with demons here and there and can still be a prick and hard to get along with, etc...but I am getting better at living on this planet. I still remember the 4 people who confronted me about my drug/alcohol use when I was an active addict. I remember them b/c I knew what they were saying was true and they confronted me out of Love, they had no other agenda other than trying to save my life.

If you know someone who is struggling but are afraid to speak up, you might want to consider it before it's too late. I know there are people in Winehouse's camp who may be kicking themselves today, however, there are also those who did all they could do. It can be a fine line.

There's no such thing as "tough Love"; real Love is tough enough.

Addiction can be a mother fucker. 

Amy Winehouse- Some Unholy War [Belgrade 2011] HD

[Tracy 2112]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

[woodnymph]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

It sucks either way... I know people who don't want to get clean (it would require them acknowledging that they had a problem in the first place, and that's not always a step people want to take) and I know people who struggle with it and are in and out of rehabilitation...  just crappy either way...  I've definitely always felt infinitely unable to help any of them, what a feeling... and the 2 or 3 I know who have pushed through and actually overcome it only did so because their mind was strong enough to overcome it, and they weren't going to let it win.

But it's always, always a good idea to support friends and family as much as you can, even if you can only do so from the distance that they hold you.

[Non Sin Breaux]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

[Tracy 2112]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

Ok, well, you have gone from "most addicts" to "some people"; that's quite a leap from "most" to "some".

And being an addict doesn't mean you are "weak". I know some addicts who have been through some things that an average person couldn't handle.

[Non Sin Breaux]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

And being an addict doesn't mean you are "weak". I know some addicts who have been through some things that an average person couldn't handle.

Of course. They can go through many things that the average people can't go through. They do this by dulling the pain of dealing with real problems with drugs and booze.

It's weakness. Everybody is given the knowledge that drugs are bad and will ruin their lives one day. Some don't care and some don't listen. Fuck em, they make other people lives much worse.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

And being an addict doesn't mean you are "weak". I know some addicts who have been through some things that an average person couldn't handle.

Of course. They can go through many things that the average people can't go through. They do this by dulling the pain of dealing with real problems with drugs and booze.

It's weakness. Everybody is given the knowledge that drugs are bad and will ruin their lives one day. Some don't care and some don't listen. Fuck em, they make other people lives much worse.

is it weakness or desire?  I think desire has more to do with it than somebody being weak.  the proverbial 'chase the dragon'.  unless you have ever been related to or friends with an addict you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  sure some people are a waste of life but most of the people I know who are into hard drugs are intelligent, charismatic people.  the word "loser" is the last thing that comes to mind.  they're definitely broke but they're still the same people I've always known growing up, only now they have worse habits.

I don't hear you giving shit to people who HAVE to have their morning coffee or a cigarette every 30minutes.   I'm sure you do not truly believe every binge drinking friend you have is an addict, but they are.  so I guess my question is, who is this loser you're describing?  a real person or an imaginary one designed by your experience with the D.A.R.E. program?

[woodnymph]

No need to argue about using here, Tracy you started a good thread about supporting people who are in the struggle.  And congratulations on 20 years clean!!  Let's just break it down to the basics:

1. Using beyond moderation is bad.  Most of us know this because most of us have experienced it either through ourselves or through people that we know.

2. We can't always help people who will not help themselves.  This does not in any way mean to stop trying, and at the very least we need not ever stop showing our love or that we care.

3. Not all users are bad people.  And the people who do things that we consider bad are usually very lost on their path.  That by no means excuses people for stealing or hurting others (I've been robbed from and jumped before myself and have some first-hand experience with "bad" people) But I feel capable of reflecting back on those circumstances and realizing just how lost those people are (or were). And it only frees yourself if you can forgive people who do you wrong.

And finally 4.  I don't think any of us can say what it is that gets to the people that we know or hear about.  Because I think it varies from person to person to person to person.  But everything everybody here has mentioned very likely plays a role.  Weakness, desire, dulling of pains, etc... and maybe for the people that we know we are able to pick those qualities out in them, but I suppose what I mean is that we really oughtn't generalize all users into any one group.

OK, I think everything I just said everybody already knows.....

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

And being an addict doesn't mean you are "weak". I know some addicts who have been through some things that an average person couldn't handle.

Of course. They can go through many things that the average people can't go through. They do this by dulling the pain of dealing with real problems with drugs and booze.

It's weakness. Everybody is given the knowledge that drugs are bad and will ruin their lives one day. Some don't care and some don't listen. Fuck em, they make other people lives much worse.

is it weakness or desire?  I think desire has more to do with it than somebody being weak.  the proverbial 'chase the dragon'.  unless you have ever been related to or friends with an addict you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  sure some people are a waste of life but most of the people I know who are into hard drugs are intelligent, charismatic people.  the word "loser" is the last thing that comes to mind.  they're definitely broke but they're still the same people I've always known growing up, only now they have worse habits.

I don't hear you giving shit to people who HAVE to have their morning coffee or a cigarette every 30minutes.   I'm sure you do not truly believe every binge drinking friend you have is an addict, but they are.  so I guess my question is, who is this loser you're describing?  a real person or an imaginary one designed by your experience with the D.A.R.E. program?

I personally don't think coffee is that extreme on the scale of addiction as hard drugs. I hate coffee and cigarettes(unless I'm on vacation).

Never called anyone a loser. Have many friends that are addicts and they are all horrible fathers to their children. Alot of people can drink socially , for the people that can't and go beyond they are what I call refer to as "weak".

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/01/alcohol.harm/index.html

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

"A look at how heroin, cocaine and other drugs affect the bodyHeroin and cocaine were ranked most dangerous, followed by barbiturates and street methadone. Alcohol was the fifth-most harmful drug and tobacco the ninth most harmful. Cannabis came in 11th, and near the bottom of the list was Ecstasy."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-tobacco-make-top-list-risky-drugs/

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

more:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

No need to argue about using here, Tracy you started a good thread about supporting people who are in the struggle.  And congratulations on 20 years clean!!

right on.

[e_wind]

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober. You have to accept them for who they are and just live your own life.

Most addicts out there don't want to get sober? I would disagree with that statement 100%. I'd say that many do, but don't know how or realize how hard it is to stay clean.

Some people love getting high more than anything. Even more than life itself.

There's only so much you can do. Don't feel guilty about about not going far and beyond for someone that gives up. It's just weak people out there, that's all.

And being an addict doesn't mean you are "weak". I know some addicts who have been through some things that an average person couldn't handle.

Of course. They can go through many things that the average people can't go through. They do this by dulling the pain of dealing with real problems with drugs and booze.

It's weakness. Everybody is given the knowledge that drugs are bad and will ruin their lives one day. Some don't care and some don't listen. Fuck em, they make other people lives much worse.

is it weakness or desire?  I think desire has more to do with it than somebody being weak.  the proverbial 'chase the dragon'.  unless you have ever been related to or friends with an addict you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  sure some people are a waste of life but most of the people I know who are into hard drugs are intelligent, charismatic people.  the word "loser" is the last thing that comes to mind.  they're definitely broke but they're still the same people I've always known growing up, only now they have worse habits.

I don't hear you giving shit to people who HAVE to have their morning coffee or a cigarette every 30minutes.   I'm sure you do not truly believe every binge drinking friend you have is an addict, but they are.  so I guess my question is, who is this loser you're describing?  a real person or an imaginary one designed by your experience with the D.A.R.E. program?

I personally don't think coffee is that extreme on the scale of addiction as hard drugs. I hate coffee and cigarettes(unless I'm on vacation).

Never called anyone a loser. Have many friends that are addicts and they are all horrible fathers to their children. Alot of people can drink socially , for the people that can't and go beyond they are what I call refer to as "weak".

I think sticky's right. You are describing the cliche heroine/meth/crack/whatever addict that you saw when DARE came to your school. If you think that's what all addicted people are, I have the feeling you've never met anyone addicted to anything. don't believe everything you see on TV!

[tdb810]

Thanks Tracy for this thread.  It is kind of disturbing to see some of the judging that is going on here, but I guess it represents the general population's view of addiction.  As someone who has been working in the field of addiction for 15 years, and married to someone in recovery, all I hope is that people can become more enlightened. 

I take issue particularly with the word weakness, it's such a copout, and makes me cringe. 

Please remember folks, that in addition to psychological/social/economical/genetic predispiosition/environmental issues having much interplay here, there is also the concept of the biochemistry of drug abuse and dependence. 

Please people, educate yourselves, and have compassion. 

[Non Sin Breaux]

Please remember folks, that in addition to psychological/social/economical/genetic predispiosition/environmental issues having much interplay here, there is also the concept of the biochemistry of drug abuse and dependence. 

It's still weakness. Some people are mentally stronger than others and can overcome anything.

[Tracy 2112]

Please remember folks, that in addition to psychological/social/economical/genetic predispiosition/environmental issues having much interplay here, there is also the concept of the biochemistry of drug abuse and dependence. 

It's still weakness. Some people are mentally stronger than others and can overcome anything.

Great; we get your point. You feel addiction is a mental weakness. Got it. Having worked in the addiction field professionally and going through it personally, I couldn't disagree with you more. However, I am not going to sway your opinion and you're not going to sway mine.

Your take on people with a weak mind who suffer from addiction is "Fuck em". Got it. Don't need to hear it again, I get it. Thanks for the input.

My hope for this thread lies in my original comment:

If you know someone who is struggling but are afraid to speak up, you might want to consider it before it's too late. I know there are people in Winehouse's camp who may be kicking themselves today, however, there are also those who did all they could do. It can be a fine line.

There's no such thing as "tough Love"; real Love is tough enough.

Addiction can be a mother fucker.

peace

[Non Sin Breaux]

Your take on people with a weak mind who suffer from addiction is "Fuck em". Got it. Don't need to hear it again, I get it. Thanks for the input.

It's not really about Fuck Em. Just more of "BE REALISTIC"!

Many of these people know what they are doing to themselves and others around them. Death isn't a big deal to addicts. I can say the same thing for my friend that speeds all the time in his car. One day he's gonna kill himself and take someone with him. I can't change that but just accept it.

[e_wind]

Your take on people with a weak mind who suffer from addiction is "Fuck em". Got it. Don't need to hear it again, I get it. Thanks for the input.

Death isn't a big deal to addicts. 

:o

[johnnYYac]

Your take on people with a weak mind who suffer from addiction is "Fuck em". Got it. Don't need to hear it again, I get it. Thanks for the input.

It's not really about Fuck Em. Just more of "BE REALISTIC"!

Many of these people know what they are doing to themselves and others around them. Death isn't a big deal to addicts. I can say the same thing for my friend that speeds all the time in his car. One day he's gonna kill himself and take someone with him. I can't change that but just accept it.

These two statements suggest a weak mind, alright.  If I think someone I care about is hurting themselves AND might hurt others, I'll do my damnest to help them.

Tracy, sorry your original thoughts have been derailed, TWICE!  I've decided I hate Pinback, whatever the fuck that is.

[Non Sin Breaux]

Your take on people with a weak mind who suffer from addiction is "Fuck em". Got it. Don't need to hear it again, I get it. Thanks for the input.

It's not really about Fuck Em. Just more of "BE REALISTIC"!

Many of these people know what they are doing to themselves and others around them. Death isn't a big deal to addicts. I can say the same thing for my friend that speeds all the time in his car. One day he's gonna kill himself and take someone with him. I can't change that but just accept it.

These two statements suggest a weak mind, alright.  If I think someone I care about is hurting themselves AND might hurt others, I'll do my damnest to help them.

Tracy, sorry your original thoughts have been derailed, TWICE!  I've decided I hate Pinback, whatever the fuck that is.

That's cool. Maybe I should hide the keys from my friend and flatten his tires. Maybe even call the Police on him when I know he's speeding in his car.

...or I can do the opposite and pay all of his speeding tickets and encourage him to keep it real.

Instead of looking in from the outside and give good advice I should just intervene one way or another.
I'll do my damnest to help them.
I'll do my damnest to help them.
I'll do my damnest to help them.

Put down that cheeseburger, it'll kill you slowly but surely ;)