The Waterfall II

[parkervb]

love seeing some of the old and new forum folks this album has awakened.

[silentjay]

I got into this band in 2010 and fell in love with their entire back catalogue at that point. Evil Urges was actually the first album of theirs I listened to and it hooked me. Then Circuital came out and really underwhelmed me. The Waterfall was a bit of a step in the right direction, but it still didn't hit me like anything pre-Circuital.

But The Waterfall II feels like the album I've been waiting for for 10 years. It immediately hooked me in ways Circuital and WF didn't. I can't believe they've been sitting on these songs for 5+ years.

[Jackets N Pones]

Loving this album! Sorry if this is obvious but what does get back to water mean?

[gardenparty]

But The Waterfall II feels like the album I've been waiting for for 10 years. It immediately hooked me in ways Circuital and WF didn't. I can't believe they've been sitting on these songs for 5+ years.

Agreed

[slappymoe]

listened enough times now to form an opinion.  as if anyone should care.

overall, about what i expected, maybe a bit lacking on rock 'n roll, but plenty of harmless, enjoyable tunes.  nothing mind-bending or earth-shattering.

the lifelong prince fan in me has always loved magic bullet, still my favorite on this album.  run it is great, impossible to not like feel you. still thinking and beautiful love have a nice 60's pop feel. 

the rest are ok, somewhat forgettable imho.

and i just don't feel the love for wasted.  i agree that the 4 minute jam at the end is really fantastic, but the first two minutes of that song are painful to my ears. sounds like a spinal tap parody song.  seems it will go down with victory dance as songs i just don't get.  both are better than outta my system, though.  freakin' hate that song.

1. Z
2. Tennessee Fire (hearing it played by this lineup at OBH4 was a religious experience)
3. It Still Moves
4. At Dawn
5. Evil Urges
6. Waterfall 1
7. Waterfall 2
8. Circuital

[rkwedge]

Loving this album! Sorry if this is obvious but what does get back to water mean?

I think Jim explains it in this interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Y6nwMyt1s
Aprrox. 13:10 in.

[gardenparty]

and i just don't feel the love for wasted.  i agree that the 4 minute jam at the end is really fantastic, but the first two minutes of that song are painful to my ears. sounds like a spinal tap parody song.

In It's Infancy is the true Spinal Tap parody.

[Stevie]

After 5 listens, here's my unsolicited thoughts on the new album from someone who has seen them live about 50 times since 2008:

The first time through reminded me of listening to Regions of Light for the first time.. Some of the songs are so off brand for Jim/MMJ it just made me recoil.. but my expectations were a LOT lower for this than they were for Regions at the time, so it was easy to just accept what they are doing and take the good.

Spinning My Wheels: I really like this one. What an interesting choice for an opener!  That slow building dread in the background contrasted by his delicate, angelic singing, it's like taking a ride on a cloud with Jim while you glide over a post apocalyptic landscape.  I keep forgetting that the album was made before Eternally Even and I want to say it sounds influenced by that album.  Instead it's a foreshadowing of what would come.

Still Thinkin:  The first time I heard this song I just started laughing.. I couldn't believe they put it on an album.  Not that I didn't' like it.. It was just so different from anything else they've done that it threw me off.  As someone who found the band after 2008, I felt like I may have finally understood the shock that older fans must have had upon hearing Highly Suspicious for the first time.  All that aside, I have come to love this song very quickly and I really hope they go down this road again.  Jim's voice is just too perfect for that genre not to go back to it.  That said, I found the jam/outro of this song to be generic and boring, and the transition between the two segments a bit too sudden, maybe not very well thought out.  This is a recurring theme for me on the album, actually.  On one hand it's cool that there are these moments that sound as if you are watching them on a stage.  The jams feel way less scripted than in past albums.   But the downside of that is that it often feels uninspired, repetitive, and doesn't really go anywhere.  In the live setting this is fine, you appreciate a deviation from the album and in the midst of a 2.5 hour set it's nice to have a breather in the form of a noodly sound collage.   I just prefer the model of making it tight on the record and expanding in the live realm.

Climbing the Ladder:  I have nothing nice to say about that opening (and recurring) guitar riff.  I just can't stand it and I hope if they play this song live they find a way to make it sound less like some kind of synthetic, computer generated cartoon music.  The rest of the song isn't terrible.  I can live with it.  I just hope and pray that this isn't one of those bad MMJ songs that the band for some reason can't stop playing live (Out of My System, First Light... most of Circuital, really)
 
Feel You:  This is the obvious winner on the album.  If you've heard the song then I'm not sure what I can add to it.  Just a very beautiful piece.  Side Note: it's been said that it sounds a bit like Breathe by Pink Floyd, which is true, but parts of it are also curiously similar to a song called Captured by Gov't Mule (which Jim did guest vocals on for an alternate version of the song).  Obviously they would never aim to rip anyone off but there may have been some bleed through on this one.

Beautiful Love (Wasn't Enough):  It's so short for a Jacket song that I don't know how seriously to take it, but I enjoy it.  This is now the second song (Still Thinkin) that feels incomplete but instead of getting an outro jam they just end it after a short little guitar solo.  They said that this album wasn't a collection of B-sides, but I'm starting to feel like a few of these songs were probably bound to be B-sides but instead became filler.  In the past, I think Jim would have held on to these song segments until he had a better resolution for them.  But if you have 6 or 7 really solid songs that are 5 years old and probably can't be released alongside anything else, this move makes sense.

Magic Bullet:  I appreciate the sentiment and the sense of duty behind this song.  I actually really enjoyed it live at Red Rocks.  I cannot stand this song on the album.  It's an instant skip for me every time.  The beat is very rigid and predictable.  Things never really transform, they just layer on new sounds as they go.  It's like I'm listening to some kid's first attempt at using fruity loops.  I've said all the nice things I can say about this song and ill end it there.

Run It:  It's growing on me but I still feel like the chorus goes on about 2-4 times too long.  Still, I feel like it will be pretty good live.  There's just a lot of potential there for the insertion of some really unique jamming and/or some really weird Jim moments.  Staying tuned on the evolution of this one.

Wasted:  Another obvious winner.  Really not much to say about it other than it should destroy live.

Welcome Home:  2012, one of the nights of the Port Chester 3 night run, I was walking outside of the venue by the tour bus and heard them doing sound check.  Put my ear closer to the door and heard a song I had never heard before.  Assumed it was a cover.  Later that night we got that song, which turned out to be "Welcome Home."  Since then it's been one of my favorites, especially during the holidays.  I'm excited that it's finally got a place on a Jacket LP but I don't know that it feels like a good fit.  I guess that's one complaint I have about the album in general is that it doesn't feel like a cohesive grouping where the sum is greater than the parts.  It just feels like parts.  That's one area where Waterfall 1 (and really every other Jacket album) just blows this album away.  That, as well as some of my prior complaints, could all be the result of a different finishing process (perhaps rushed, which sounds funny given the time between releases.. perhaps just in absence of a production team, I have no idea).
But back to the song.. Love it.  Jim could make songs like this forever if he wanted to.

The First Time:  Didn't like this song when I first heard it long ago but it's really grown on me.  A very peaceful and fitting way to wrap things up.  We came in dreaming but full of anxiety, we leave, still dreaming but now accepting, and feeling that corresponding sense of bliss.

The album exceeds my low expectations but ultimately it will be judged the way all Jacket albums should be judged: by their impact on the live realm.  How will these songs transfer to the stage?  Which ones will become staples and which ones will fade?  I really can't stand Circuital for the most part but it gave us Slow Slow Tune and Victory Dance, so it has a place.  In the extremely vivid painting that is a Jacket show, this album gives the band some softer, dreamier colors to play around with for contrast and that alone is exciting.

[Lucius]

Confused at all the Circuital hate. I always felt it was a much more refined continuation of Evil Urges which was/is much too loud and jarring in most places for me, production wise (I do think Thank You Too is incredibly underrated though). Listen to those two records back to back and Circuital is like a breath of fresh air

[Stevie]

Confused at all the Circuital hate. I always felt it was a much more refined continuation of Evil Urges which was/is much too loud and jarring in most places for me, production wise (I do think Thank You Too is incredibly underrated though). Listen to those two records back to back and Circuital is like a breath of fresh air

Different strokes, but for me Evil Urges was my first Jacket exposure and I really loved it. 

Circuital, i dont know what it is, but i feel annoyed by most of the songs on a molecular level.  Then again i'm actually one of the few who really like The Day is Coming so..

[mdgsolo]

I love Circuital.  I feel like the songs get up and run and live I've enjoyed each and every one of them- some more than others at different times.  I guess it just came at a time I really needed it and I love it for the tangled up memories as well as its musicality..

[Jbpats]

and i just don't feel the love for wasted.  i agree that the 4 minute jam at the end is really fantastic, but the first two minutes of that song are painful to my ears. sounds like a spinal tap parody song.

In It's Infancy is the true Spinal Tap parody.

I'm with you on wasted, the jam at the end more then makes up for the song itself. The first two minutes are pretty bad, the last four are a 10.
Really hope this song gets the run thru treatment if and when played live.

[Nikkogino]

and i just don't feel the love for wasted.  i agree that the 4 minute jam at the end is really fantastic, but the first two minutes of that song are painful to my ears. sounds like a spinal tap parody song.

In It's Infancy is the true Spinal Tap parody.

I'm with you on wasted, the jam at the end more then makes up for the song itself. The first two minutes are pretty bad, the last four are a 10.
Really hope this song gets the run thru treatment if and when played live.

How are the first four minutes bad?  They are slightly repetitive, but I think it is perfect for setting up the eventual jam.  The "whoa oa oa oahhh" coming in and out is cool and eventually triples to present the piano solo into guitars.  There is nothing bad about the song. 

[RobRoy286]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

[Jbpats]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

It's a good album but on the lower end of the spectrum for me.
My order is:
Evil Urges
It still Moves
Z
At Dawn
Waterfall 1
Waterfall 2
Circuital
Tennessee Fire

I'd say the Waterfall through Circuital bucket are an absolute tie and can be interchangeable on any given day. Same with Z & At Dawn. I have no problem sitting down and listening to any of these albums any day of the week.
Evil Urges is my clear cut # 1 and TF is the only album I genuinely can't listen to. The songs on TF sound great live, but as a studio recording it bores me to death.

[dookie shoot bandit]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

It's a good album but on the lower end of the spectrum for me.
My order is:
Evil Urges
It still Moves
Z
At Dawn
Waterfall 1
Waterfall 2
Circuital
Tennessee Fire

I'd say the Waterfall through Circuital bucket are an absolute tie and can be interchangeable on any given day. Same with Z & At Dawn. I have no problem sitting down and listening to any of these albums any day of the week.
Evil Urges is my clear cut # 1 and TF is the only album I genuinely can't listen to. The songs on TF sound great live, but as a studio recording it bores me to death.

😱😱😱😱😱SAY IT AINT TRUE Jbpats!!!????

I am a "heartbreakin man" right now

The bear
Evelyn
By my car
Twilight
Nashville
The dark
They ran

Etc. etc. etc!!!!

I think musically they evolved and as an album would put TTF right under Z, At Dawn, It Still Moves

To think that a couple punk 21 year old kids can put this out as a first album, still amazes me!

But DEAD LAST???...Wow!!!!

It is the one great thing about this band though! Every album is so so different... that they have such a wide range of fans and outlooks

[Jbpats]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

It's a good album but on the lower end of the spectrum for me.
My order is:
Evil Urges
It still Moves
Z
At Dawn
Waterfall 1
Waterfall 2
Circuital
Tennessee Fire

I'd say the Waterfall through Circuital bucket are an absolute tie and can be interchangeable on any given day. Same with Z & At Dawn. I have no problem sitting down and listening to any of these albums any day of the week.
Evil Urges is my clear cut # 1 and TF is the only album I genuinely can't listen to. The songs on TF sound great live, but as a studio recording it bores me to death.

😱😱😱😱😱SAY IT AINT TRUE Jbpats!!!????

I am a "heartbreakin man" right now

The bear
Evelyn
By my car
Twilight
Nashville
The dark
They ran

Etc. etc. etc!!!!

I think musically they evolved and as an album would put TTF right under Z, At Dawn, It Still Moves

To think that a couple punk 21 year old kids can put this out as a first album, still amazes me!

But DEAD LAST???...Wow!!!!

It is the one great thing about this band though! Every album is so so different... that they have such a wide range of fans and outlooks

Again songs sound great live, but as a studio recording it is mediocre at best. It's amazing how the band has progressed and listening to their evolution is nothing short of amazing.. but I kind of compare it to Pink Floyd. Whoever would put The Piper at the Gates of Dawn ahead of Darkside, The Wall, Wish you were here or Animals is delusional. Piper could have been recorded by any band, it's the later albums that make them special.

I feel the same way about Tennessee, it's a basic album that could have been released by a ton of average bands - the evolution through the years is our MMJ today.

Not trying to be confrontational but it's how I've always felt about this band and especially that record.

[dookie shoot bandit]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

It's a good album but on the lower end of the spectrum for me.
My order is:
Evil Urges
It still Moves
Z
At Dawn
Waterfall 1
Waterfall 2
Circuital
Tennessee Fire

I'd say the Waterfall through Circuital bucket are an absolute tie and can be interchangeable on any given day. Same with Z & At Dawn. I have no problem sitting down and listening to any of these albums any day of the week.
Evil Urges is my clear cut # 1 and TF is the only album I genuinely can't listen to. The songs on TF sound great live, but as a studio recording it bores me to death.

😱😱😱😱😱SAY IT AINT TRUE Jbpats!!!????

I am a "heartbreakin man" right now

The bear
Evelyn
By my car
Twilight
Nashville
The dark
They ran

Etc. etc. etc!!!!

I think musically they evolved and as an album would put TTF right under Z, At Dawn, It Still Moves

To think that a couple punk 21 year old kids can put this out as a first album, still amazes me!

But DEAD LAST???...Wow!!!!

It is the one great thing about this band though! Every album is so so different... that they have such a wide range of fans and outlooks

Again songs sound great live, but as a studio recording it is mediocre at best. It's amazing how the band has progressed and listening to their evolution is nothing short of amazing.. but I kind of compare it to Pink Floyd. Whoever would put The Piper at the Gates of Dawn ahead of Darkside, The Wall, Wish you were here or Animals is delusional. Piper could have been recorded by any band, it's the later albums that make them special.

I feel the same way about Tennessee, it's a basic album that could have been released by a ton of average bands - the evolution through the years is our MMJ today.

Not trying to be confrontational but it's how I've always felt about this band and especially that record.

No confrontation at all... Friendly debate
That is the best thing about music!!

I get your point and I don't walk around saying Please Please Me is the best Beatles album. And I'm not saying I think TTF is my favorite Jacket album either.
I love this band and love the risks they take and how they change it up and try to be different on every album.

Everyone has their own opinion and the fan base has grown over their 21 years of playing and have picked up new fans with every record, like they are supposed to do.

Just in "my" opinion, there are songs I like and love and crush live on the newer records... but as a whole entire collection of songs from start to finish? There is no way I can put The Waterfall I or II, Circuital or Evil Urges above TTF.
Again one mans opinion.
 
I love Spring and Tropics, and against the majority on here, Big Decisions too. But I only like the rest of the Waterfall

I love Victory Dance, Circuital, and Slow Slow Tune, and I envy what they tried to do with the Muppets stuff, but again as an entire album? Not a favorite of mine

I love most of Evil Urges and can't say enough good things about this album, I just place it under TTF

I am really really enjoying Waterfall II right now and only time will tell where it falls for me.

But after 16 years of listening to This band... I still listen, throw on TTF in it entirety. I can not say that for Waterfall, Circuital, or Even Evil Urges.
I love a lot of these songs, but really only get play in my house if I am listening to a live recording or if I have the Jacket on shuffle.

[Lucius]

TTF comes last for me too, sorry guys.

It's all down to the production. Much prefer listening to live recordings of the songs from recent years. 'They Ran' is in my top 10 Jacket songs but I can't listen to the album version. My go to is the version from the Las Vegas Live EP. I loved listening to the recording of the anniversary show they played last year though.

My rank is

1 It Still Moves (2016 remaster which absolutely blows the album wide open!)
2 The Waterfall I / II (Gonna count them as one for now, too early to tell where II will land yet but I earns it place due to nostalgia, I was a very new fan when Circuital came out but WF was my first album by them as a real fan and the first time I saw them live so it's special to me! Plus I don't care what anyone says, In Its Infancy is top tier MMJ)
3 Z
4 Circuital
5 At Dawn (Again - love the songs but prefer what they've become live over the years and much prefer listening to live recordings. There are several HQ recordings of Phone that have replaced the studio version in my mind)
6 Evil Urges
7 The Tennessee Fire

There is not an album on the list I think is a total write off though. TTF only comes bottom because of what I've already mentioned and Evil Urges because it's a bit silly for me in places and some of the rock songs feel a bit forced and uninspired (what the hell is Highly Suspicious? Come on) but I still love Smokin', the Touch Mes, Thank You, Sec Walkin, and also I'm Amazed/Evil Urges if I'm in the right mood. It would have made a great EP that's for sure!

[Jbpats]

Just gonna throw out some more love for Circuital- amazing album!

It's a good album but on the lower end of the spectrum for me.
My order is:
Evil Urges
It still Moves
Z
At Dawn
Waterfall 1
Waterfall 2
Circuital
Tennessee Fire

I'd say the Waterfall through Circuital bucket are an absolute tie and can be interchangeable on any given day. Same with Z & At Dawn. I have no problem sitting down and listening to any of these albums any day of the week.
Evil Urges is my clear cut # 1 and TF is the only album I genuinely can't listen to. The songs on TF sound great live, but as a studio recording it bores me to death.

😱😱😱😱😱SAY IT AINT TRUE Jbpats!!!????

I am a "heartbreakin man" right now

The bear
Evelyn
By my car
Twilight
Nashville
The dark
They ran

Etc. etc. etc!!!!

I think musically they evolved and as an album would put TTF right under Z, At Dawn, It Still Moves

To think that a couple punk 21 year old kids can put this out as a first album, still amazes me!

But DEAD LAST???...Wow!!!!

It is the one great thing about this band though! Every album is so so different... that they have such a wide range of fans and outlooks

Again songs sound great live, but as a studio recording it is mediocre at best. It's amazing how the band has progressed and listening to their evolution is nothing short of amazing.. but I kind of compare it to Pink Floyd. Whoever would put The Piper at the Gates of Dawn ahead of Darkside, The Wall, Wish you were here or Animals is delusional. Piper could have been recorded by any band, it's the later albums that make them special.

I feel the same way about Tennessee, it's a basic album that could have been released by a ton of average bands - the evolution through the years is our MMJ today.

Not trying to be confrontational but it's how I've always felt about this band and especially that record.

No confrontation at all... Friendly debate
That is the best thing about music!!

I get your point and I don't walk around saying Please Please Me is the best Beatles album. And I'm not saying I think TTF is my favorite Jacket album either.
I love this band and love the risks they take and how they change it up and try to be different on every album.

Everyone has their own opinion and the fan base has grown over their 21 years of playing and have picked up new fans with every record, like they are supposed to do.

Just in "my" opinion, there are songs I like and love and crush live on the newer records... but as a whole entire collection of songs from start to finish? There is no way I can put The Waterfall I or II, Circuital or Evil Urges above TTF.
Again one mans opinion.
 
I love Spring and Tropics, and against the majority on here, Big Decisions too. But I only like the rest of the Waterfall

I love Victory Dance, Circuital, and Slow Slow Tune, and I envy what they tried to do with the Muppets stuff, but again as an entire album? Not a favorite of mine

I love most of Evil Urges and can't say enough good things about this album, I just place it under TTF

I am really really enjoying Waterfall II right now and only time will tell where it falls for me.

But after 16 years of listening to This band... I still listen, throw on TTF in it entirety. I can not say that for Waterfall, Circuital, or Even Evil Urges.
I love a lot of these songs, but really only get play in my house if I am listening to a live recording or if I have the Jacket on shuffle.

All valid points, as they say.. different strokes for different folks.

At this stage of my life there are very few albums I can listen straight through without skipping a track or two, especially albums i've heard 10,000 times.
Trying to think of a list off the top of my head, and not counting live releases

1) darkside of the moon
2) Pearl Jam- Ten
3) Damian Rice - O - I realize this is an outlier to my list
4) AIC - Dirt (even this might be pushing it a bit)
Most radiohead albums - but thats more because they act as more ambient noise for me
and of course It still moves and Evil urges.. but even these albums have one or two tracks I can take or leave.

This is just off the top of my head, but honestly i'd be hard pressed to think of any others.

Obviously there are tons of live records I can easily listen from start to finish on repeat - Grateful Dead, DMB, Okonokos etc. but I am simply thinking of studio albums here