RELIGION SHOULD APPEAL TO THE HEARTS OF THE YOUNG

[ycartrob]

RELIGION - SHOULD APPEAL TO THE HEARTS OF THE YOUNG.

Simply awesome.

[pete]

yes simply beautiful!

[EC]

I agree, but...  Here's what I think abut.  Especially for religion, and I always feel the need to preface what I say about religion because I know it's sacred to a lot of people, and I don't mean to offend.

So, it's always seemed to me from my own experience, and watching other people, that the teen years is the time when you start to really think about stuff in a new way.  You either start picking up philosophy books, or getting more into the religion that you wre brought up in, or getting out of the religion you were brought up in, and usually that happens from thinking.  You start to realize that you can make up your own mind about stuff, and you feel like you have an opinion and want to talk about things.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion.  I like a lot of the ideas behind a lot of the religions, and philosophies for that matter, but I just don't like ascribing to a pre-made code.  I find it doesn't make me think like I should.

Anyhow, all that to say that I don't think I understand this line, and I was wondering if you felt like delving further into it, Tracy?  Obviously, who knows what the real intention was behind it, and in this debate, maybe it's beside the point.  (That's another debate we've had on this forum, I think - whether what the author intended is of equal or more or less importance than what you get from it.)

Along those lines, I think religion does appeal to the hearts of the young.  And especially their minds.  But I'm speaking of religion/philosphy in general, and not a specific one.  So Tracy, what I'm wondering is, how are you taking the line?  Just so I can understand why you like it so much.  :)

Thank you, and good day.

[ycartrob]

I think man (adults) has peverted "religion". I don't put religion and spirituality in the same category. Spirituality does appeal to the hearts of the young.

I am a church going Christian.

Religion has been molded into a country club mentality. Religion has made Jesus' likeness (who was from the Middle East) look like he was from Kansas and taught Philosophy or Basket Weaving at a Junior College. Religion has been an integral component in the continuation of oppression of women and the poor and minorities and homosexuals. Religion is used as an excuse, an alibi. Religion seperates. Religion corrupts. Religion alienates. Religion discriminates. When I think of all these things, I think of man, not God.

God did not create religion, God created us.

To be young at is to stay hopeful, playful, spiritual, malleable, open, vunerable, forgiving.

Does "religion" appeal to the hearts of the young or does "living like an adult" appeal to the hearts of the young?

I feel the "young" are the actual young people, and the "young" are also those little places in adult's hearts that still remember what's it like to be "able" to hope, play, forgive, need, and love.

That's a lot for 1 line, but most what I feel about that line is not matched with words. It just appeals to my heart...

[wellfleet]

tracy, you're my favourite kind of Christian. I speak as the most non-jewish jewish girl ever. organized religion scares me because of all the reasons you mentioned. i hate it when people use Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed to justify their hatred toward fellow man. I feel like religion is being co-opted for hateful reasons. it gives me hope to see that some Christians remember that according to the scriptures, Christ loved everybody, including, and actually, especially, those on society's margins. Jesus taught about loving your neighbour, about treating everyone with respect. the way i see it and read the bible, Jesus would not prevent gay people from marrying, women from having abortions, or pre-marital sex.
but when you think about it, religion is the suspension of logic and reality. it is belief based on belief, on faith, not on concrete facts. believing in God, the resurrection, immaculate conception, etc. requires us to disregard biology and such. i don't know if this is good or bad, but it's certainly a form of illogical behaviour. not in the pejorative sense. but consider someone telling you that he believes that the middle of planet Earth is occupied by a 90-legged hog named Bruiser who controls the tides and the weather. he has no proof, but he believes it. to him, this is truth. to me, it's no different than believing that God appeared to Moses through a burning bush or that Jesus rose from his death after the crucifiction or that Mary had a virgin birth. nobody can prove this, but many people believe in it.
religion appeals to the young and the young-minded because it offers answers where there are none and security when there can be none. religion is comforting and soothing and finite. in religion, even when there is no answer, the answer is "because of God".
but religion can lead to miracles. not *miraculous* miracles, but it can push people to extraordinary things.
i dunno. i certainly don't have the answers.

[ycartrob]

"Without somehow destroying me in the process, how could God reveal himself in a way that would leave no room for doubt? If there were no room for doubt, there would be no room for me." - Frederick Buechner

[wellfleet]

absolutely agree with that last post. my brother once told my dad that he doesn't believe in God because he's never seen him. so my dad asked him if he's ever seen a million dollars. my brother said no and my dad said that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
i have no problem with doubts. the questions keep us alive and in progress. i don't mind suspending my reality for the sake of faith. faith can be very powerful.
i don't begrudge the religious so long as they don't impose their faith on me. but like you said, religion is being used as a tool to advance the interests of certain people to the detriment of others. take W. for example. he's born-again and that's fantastic. i know born-again Christians who attend church twice a week and are active in the community and with charity works and are genuinely good people. but i think it is the height of narcissism to say that God is using you for his purposes. or to use the Lord's name to underwrite a particular cause.
if Jesus were to observe how we are today, how His name has been perverted and abused, how we treat each other, he would be horrified. true Christians, like true Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists are working off of good principles that could serve everybody's interests.
it just all ends up like Animal Farm, with some animals being more equal than others. and that's just not cool with me.

[ycartrob]

Speaking of W, wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where he could openly and honestly dicuss his faith? You know, the Bush's are "in bed" with the Arabs and everyone gets rich. Last I checked, the Arabs are not Jesus loving people. There are verses in the Bible that talk about dealings with non-believers, witnessing, etc....

Wouldn't it be great to ask W how his Christian walk influences his million dollar, money making ventures with non-believers? How he lifts up the filthy rich "non-believers" but shuns the working Christian poor?

Pretty sure Jesus did the same thing. He hung out with the vendors of the temple and basically said, "Screw them lepers!"

[Jaimoe]

Last I checked, the Arabs are not Jesus loving people. There are verses in the Bible that talk about dealings with non-believers, witnessing, etc....

The Koran believes Jesus to be a prophet. Educated Muslims should not resent or hate Jesus since the word of the Koran is law.

[ycartrob]

The Koran believes Jesus to be a prophet. Educated Muslims should not resent or hate Jesus since the word of the Koran is law.

Christians look at Christ a little differently. Plus, Jesus has a very small role in Islamic theology, unlike the New Testemant.

[Sleazy Rider]

All of you have brought up great points. I have met people who are so quick to advertise christianity "If your saved you can do anything you want and stiil be forgiven!" I think this gives people an excuse to piss on their fellow human beings without being punished. I would rather use the time that I know I have being kind rather than concentrating on going somewhere that may or may not  be there and step on people along the way. I don't know if it's the same everywhere you go or just where I'm at.

[whitepepper]

Gideon , also known as Jerubbaal, is a character that appears in the Book of Judges, in the Bible. His story is treated in chapters 6 to 8. He is also named in the Epistle to the Hebrews as an example of a man of faith. He is the son of Joash, from the clan of Abiezer in the tribe of Manasseh.

As is the pattern throughout the book of Judges, the Israelites again turned away from God after forty years of peace brought by Deborah's victory over Canaan and were allowed to be attacked by the neighbouring Midianites and Amalekites. God chose Gideon, a young man from an otherwise unremarkable clan from the tribe of Manasseh, to free the people of Israel and to condemn their worship of idols.

[Angry Ewok]

I have met people who are so quick to advertise christianity "If your saved you can do anything you want and stiil be forgiven!" I think this gives people an excuse to piss on their fellow human beings without being punished.

Unfortunately, many people (both the young and old) choose to decide on what their Bible says about particulars without ever actually picking it up and studying it. For this reason, you may find that most self-proclaimed Christians are, in fact, not Christians - but what I call members of the ever-growing Custom-fitted Religion.

More and more people are deciding, "Hmm. This particular law of the Word doesn't really sit well with me, so I think I want my God to say it's okay to be a dickhead my entire life, so long as I say "Sorry" on my deathbed. Yea, that works for me."

And fewer and fewer people are coming to understand the teachings of Christ and what he came for. It's your typical realworld paradox that so many prejudiced, hateful people pretend to be deeply religious followers of Jesus.

In my book, Jesus clearly states to his disciples that he came here only for the sick - who he called the lost sheep. This is why I believe that, of all people, Jesus holds priority for those "on the fringe" that are cast out by society... Afterall, Jesus said it himself, it is not the healthy who need a doctor.

I think the worst part about this 'Custom Religion' thing is that the Church and its Leaders have often shown our youth that it is okay to pick-and-choose what the Bible says, because no matter what you do and who you hurt - you'll be forgiven. Just look at the number of Priests and TV Elitists (no, I didn't mean to say Evangelists) who have been caught with hookers and little choir boys...

As a Christian of 2 years, it's fucking disgusting and disheartening to see these things happening.

TRULY. TRULY WE HAVE BECOME. HATED AND FEARED FOR SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT.
LISTEN. LISTEN. MOST OF US BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG.

Does this line not sound as if its coming from the heart and soul of a present day Christian? Are not Christians feared and hated for something that we (Christians) have clearly defined as wrong? Most of us believe that this, that is, the new standards of Custom-fitted Christians, is completely wrong!

So lets back it up, I'll explain why I think this refers to the Custom-fitted Religion (and I've only used Christianity as an example because that's who I am).

RELIGION - SHOULD APPEAL TO THE HEARTS OF THE YOUNG. WHO ARE YOU? WHAT HAVE YOU BECOME?
YOU ANIMAL. COME ON. WHAT DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF?

Religion should appeal to the hearts of the young - as the youth is universally associated with being pure and uncorrupted. I think we all agree on that, so far...

So, what has become this religion? I'd certainly define present day organized religion as an animal, and I'd even go so far as to relate the current day Church (a social affair, as opposed to a forum of faith), as the same Church that existed during the day of the Judges (where we meet Gideon)... Corrupt.

The Book of Judges. That's what this reminds me of.


Who knows, I may be way off... It's how I've come to interpret it, though. Perhaps this song is asking for another Judge, of sorts? Someone, like Gideon, to come out of the woodwork (or off the wall, so to speak), and rescue the hearts of the young from the corruption of the Church. Someone to remind his assembly of who Gideon, that guy collecting dust in the stained glass windows, exactly was - and what he stood for.

While they're at it - go ahead and remind their assembly of who exactly that Jesus Christ guy was, too.

[fitzcarraldo]

Some interesting posts here in this thread.  :)

"There, there Gideon. Be a Good Girl"  ;D
MACAW!!!



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2002/11/25/urbananimal.DTL

[Sleazy Rider]

Thanks Angry Ewok. I like where your heads at.

[beband]

All I can say is that I just read a book that is awesome called "Velvet Elvis" by Rob Bell and I think that even if you hate organized religion (and I am a Christian and not even a fan of it) if you read this book, it may change your mind about being a follower of Christ.  I mean the real way we should follow Christ, not the way fundamentalists have twisted it into pointing out everybody's wrongs, but simply loving people and helping them in ANY way we can.
C

[marktwain]

Gideon , also known as Jerubbaal, is a character that appears in the Book of Judges, in the Bible.

Thanks for the research!  I'm a little embarassed to say, I didn't even think about who the real Gideon was.  I thought of the Gideons, the groups who make sure there's a bible in every motel room.  I just assumed Jim was referring to the Bible.

[Chas]

Good post ewok, didn't know who Gideon was outside of the holiday inn bible guy.

Living in a "bible belt" I really can identify w/ the line "most of us believe this is wrong" w/ the us being open minded people watching the hypocrisy that org religion has become.

Your take on this lyric matches my own to a T

[fitzcarraldo]

The glorious, wonderous song 'Gideon' from Z refers to a long livin, pain in the arse but loveable Bird. According to the interview's I've read from both sides, songwriter and owner.  :)

[beband]

The glorious, wonderous song 'Gideon' from Z refers to a long livin, pain in the arse but loveable Bird. According to the interview's I've read from both sides, songwriter and owner.  :)

That may be true ( and I believe you) but where does this particular line fit into a story about a bird?  Just curious.
C