NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[SMc55]

Maybe politics got/get carried us away (and it should be because it so damn important)

I couldn't agree more. It's important that people are passionate about politics, no matter what their beliefs are.

[wordawg]

p.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

[SMc55]

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

 ;D

[Oz]

p.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  

Oh, c'mon, is this another one of those: "Hey, we Americans helped you Europeans 60 years ago, so you're never ever to criticize us ever again?" 'Cause that stuff is utter bollocks. You Americans ARE Europeans, from origin...

And all that 'we're the greatest country in the world'-crap is making me sick too. That's the exact same opinion that led some certain megalomanic to try and make Germany the center of the universe. You're not the greatest country in the world. You eat hamburgers, okay? I'm not saying you people live in the worst country either, you live in a country just like anybody else lives in a country and most of these countries are in a total mess these days (as is Holland by the way, where a movie director who openly criticized moslims got butchered like a pig a few days ago). It's all crap and humans just aren't capable of living together peacefully, I guess. But fuck anyone who thinks he lives in the greatest country, or who thinks some God is on his side. I'm sorry, but I really can't stand that.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Okay, how did this turn into a europe vs. america debate?

Sorry folks, I did get carried away.  And I apologize.

However, the main thing I am trying to say is that there is a feeling of disappointment and anger in regards to the election, at least among those who did not wish to see another four years for bush and outsiders fearful of the exact same thing.  America is a great nation, but that greatness also includes great responsibility, not only to itself but to our world neighbors.  The notion that the empire can expand endlessly to engage "hostile" forces in an ever increasing number of nations and blatantly disregard the human and financial costs is preposterous.  The notion that pre-emptive invasions are justified for whatever reasons is also insanity.  We have gone too far and made too many mistakes.  We must reverse this course before it consumes our culture and our nation (if it hasn't already).  Specifically, the idea that we are somehow "defending" the country 6,000 miles away is so far from plausible, I just can't see how anyone can defend this doctrine.  That we pre-emptively invaded a soverign nation, however noble our cause, troubles me deeply not just as an American but as a human being.  This course of action has opened a Pandora's box of bad mojo.  Iraq, ultimately, is Iraq's problem.  I can only imagine the good we could do in our very own country if 220 billion dollars were spent for something desperately needed here and not 6000 miles away, like a whole lot better detection system for explosives on airplanes or shipping containers, or fixing the health care crisis, or funding education fully to build a better future, or reversing some horrible environmental disaster, or countless other things that are terribly needed here, in our own very country; that we pay for these things with our very own tax dollars sickens and disturbs me to no end.  That the so called "tax cut" that seemingly bought W this election and slashing of social programs is somehow regarded as "fiscal responsibility" while running up hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit to crusade in Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Germany, Korea, etc. etc. is pure maddness.  I just can't see the justification for these things.  Find Osama, isn't that the goal, not occupying other nations?  Fight the root causes of terrorism and not the symptoms-poverty and religious fanatacism seem to be creating a monster together.  We can't go on bleeding the country dry to satisfy our lust for petroleum.  I pray that none of you who read this have sons or daughters or brothers of draft age.  I pray that our leaders will see the folly in their actions and retract.  I pray that other nations will forgive our callous and dangerous rush to war.

[lfish]

I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  don't you guys vote on the Prime Minister anyway?

For the reccord. The USA did not want to join WWII. This was not their War.  Only after Japan raided Pearl harbor, America really had a reason to join this war.  Okay, they favored the Allied forces by giving them weapons and other support, but Roosevelt made a promise (when he was elected) that he had  no intentions to join this war.  

Nevertheless, Europe is still grateful for what america did. But as O mentionned, people can't continue to use this argument to make Europe feel guilty.  We probably would have done the same thing for America. (Ps the French even helped with the fight for independence, without their help, maybe there)

One of the big strenghts of America is the fact it's a big & powerfull nation ("one nation under god") with full sovereignity. Nations like this has to take their responsibility on the world stage. One of the weaknesses of Europe as a whole is the lack of sovereignity . Every country has its own foreign policy.  That makes it very hard to speak (and even more difficult to act) with one voice.  We are a strong economic power but a weak military power. And that's what I dislike... sometimes we have to be more decisive. Europe is the big economical partner of the US but the partner to ignore on foreing affairs.

Therefore America as biggest country in the world stands rather alone on foreign affairs (Maybe that's gonna change with China who is now soaring)and that's the reason why a person is needed in the white house who is not only capable to run a good dommestic policy but is also the person who unites the world we're living in and solves problems other countries can't solve by their own.

[marktwain]

And all that 'we're the greatest country in the world'-crap is making me sick too.  You're not the greatest country in the world. You eat hamburgers, okay?

Makes me sick, too, O.  (Though I fear being shot for saying so.)  One of our biggest faults as a nation is our flag-waving jingoistic pride that fuels W and folks like him.  Americans are taught a proud history from an early age that glosses over anything unsavory.  Thus, our blind patriotism is misinformed, but not maliciious.

HOWEVER, let's leave the hamburgers out of this, okay?  They are delicious.

Also, many of us are (at least partially) European by descent, but let's not forget the African, American Indian, and Asian blood that pumps through America's veins.

And I've thought about moving to Canada, esp. in the last few days, but this is my home.  I love it, and I want to fix it.

[Oz]

HOWEVER, let's leave the hamburgers out of this, okay?  They are delicious.

Also, many of us are (at least partially) European by descent, but let's not forget the African, American Indian, and Asian blood that pumps through America's veins.

Yeah, okay, you're right. On both matters. :)

I just despise patriotism and nationalism I guess. I've never saw any good coming out of that and much, much tragedies. Sure, it's cool to think 'hey, I like this place that I'm living in and I think it's cool that some people who lived here before or live here still did, or are doing, some great things, so ha, in some way I'm connected to those people because I live in the same place, now ain't that funny?' But as soon as you take it any further, I can't follow you anymore and really don't want to. Maybe it's just me.

[SmoothOprtr]

Patriotism and Nationalism in concept are both ok, however they never work because they are always taken too far.  It's never enough to simply be American, or British or German or whatever and love your country and be proud and do what you can to make it better.  You have to HATE the other guy or be better than the other guy.  The idea that America is "the best" country in the world (while at times is used very cliche), is a good example.   World War I is the best example of nationalism gone too far.

[lfish]

World War I is the best example of nationalism gone too far

Someone who knows his history! I like that :D

[The Boar]

Yes, very nice to see that someone has a correct conception about World War I and World War II.

In my opinion, patriotism is fine, as long as it remains patriotism. For patriotism is simply the love of one's country, and the willingness to work and sacrifice to make it better and feel proud about it. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as long as it stays like that.

It is when patriotism turns into nationalism that most of the "tragedies" that O mentioned occur. For nationalism demands not only the love of one's country, but the comparison of other countries to one's own country. The Us vs. Them mentality if you will.

While patriotism is fine and, frankly, awesome, in my opinion, I think people (many of them Americans) too often these days use the word "patriotism" to characterize their feelings of "nationalism". That is misleading and dangerous, and what leads to tragic situations.

[EC]

Very interesting points brought up by all involved.

I was having a chat the other day about the nature of war (please forgive me if I've mentioned this before...)  Anyhow, the summation of the conversation was that, ultimately, people seem to want the same thing.  They just want to be able to do their own thing.  To live without threat of violence or horror, to keep the friends they'd like to keep, to eat an occasional hamburger, etc.  Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this rings true with the majority of people who live on this planet.  The citizens.  And it seems to me like it's only the "us vs. them" mentality that makes the shit happen.  Groups of passionate people joining forces against another group.  But it's so easy to get lost in a group mentality and forget that ultimately we're all the damn same, and seemingly want the same things, so why in the hell can't we just try to live our lives they way we choose (if we're Muslim, or we're gay, or we enjoy running naked in the forest singing our souls out on the full moon, or whatever) and not mess around with other peoples' rights to do the same?

I realize the opposition to this argument is endless, but I really don't understand how we (as a world, not as a smaller portion of the world, but we as single entities all sharing this planet) can't see yet that the thing that fucks us is the big group?  Obviously it makes things easier if the planet is divided up into continents/countries/provinces/states etc., but then you have to take the good with the bad when you're included in such a category.  So that means that ultimately, you'll never get to vote for a President that you FULLY agree with on EVERY point, or go to a war that is ABSOLUTELY necessary, or be completely proud of the entire population that you share boundaries with.

I've kind of lost my way, but man, the war thing, the fighting for fucking pointlessness (on both sides).  When are we going to really get it?

[lfish]

Probably the next war will teach us.  Don't worry.

[MMJ_fanatic]

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

whatever--I know time can make facts fuzzy.  you believe whatever makes you happy.  and O let's not forget the who prompted the bankruptcy of the USSR--the greatest threat to free society after the Nazis--thanks President Reagan.  so its not just 60 years ago--we've been there for Europe on many many occasions.  if you all choose to forget the facts fine for you but I will never forget >:(.  the fact that I am proud of my country and its achievement/contributions does not mean I hate anyone--jeez!  sorry if you're jealous or whatever emotion is driving your reactions to this.  P.S.--what is so wrong about loving your country, isn't that what patriotism is all about? unless there is a new interpretation in Websters...

[MMJ_fanatic]

P.S.:  I'm really tired of how many people here and other countries like to crap all over the US and say we're to blame for all the world's problems.

END RANT

[EC]

You have to understand MMJ fanatic, that when you don't live in the US, you get really sick of hearing them call their country the greatest in the world.  Especially in light of recent events.  There is nothing wrong with loving your country, however to bang your chest (not you, I'm speaking of patriotism in general) without questioning some of the problems that are inherent in your system, is like blindedly believing in a religion.  (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you have questions and you turn a blind eye, then that is where the problems lay.)

I know that Canadians are certainly grateful for many a thing that we get from being right beside you, but the deal has its drawbacks as well.

[wordawg]

whatever  
What exactly does that mean? Is it now a cultured and acceptable version of bugger off?

so its not just 60 years ago--we've been there for Europe on many many occasions.  if you all choose to forget the facts fine for you but I will never forget
Many thanks for all your help.

sorry if you're jealous or whatever emotion is driving your reactions to this.

Jealous of what exactly?

I will take my leave of this thread.
Politics.  It's a bugger.

[MMJ_fanatic]

You have to understand MMJ fanatic, that when you don't live in the US, you get really sick of hearing them call their country the greatest in the world.  Especially in light of recent events.  There is nothing wrong with loving your country, however to bang your chest (not you, I'm speaking of patriotism in general) without questioning some of the problems that are inherent in your system, is like blindedly believing in a religion.  (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you have questions and you turn a blind eye, then that is where the problems lay.)

I know that Canadians are certainly grateful for many a thing that we get from being right beside you, but the deal has its drawbacks as well.

agreed totally.  peace all I apologize if I got all little over the top.  but when you listen to all our media outlets bashing the country as much as they do it can get tiresome.  peace to all.  no more go America I promise

[lfish]

no more go America I promise

You' re damn right

Vive la Belgique!  ;D

[sweatboard]

Very interesting points brought up by all involved.

I was having a chat the other day about the nature of war (please forgive me if I've mentioned this before...)  Anyhow, the summation of the conversation was that, ultimately, people seem to want the same thing.  They just want to be able to do their own thing.  To live without threat of violence or horror, to keep the friends they'd like to keep, to eat an occasional hamburger, etc.  Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this rings true with the majority of people who live on this planet.  The citizens.  And it seems to me like it's only the "us vs. them" mentality that makes the shit happen.  Groups of passionate people joining forces against another group.  But it's so easy to get lost in a group mentality and forget that ultimately we're all the damn same, and seemingly want the same things, so why in the hell can't we just try to live our lives they way we choose (if we're Muslim, or we're gay, or we enjoy running naked in the forest singing our souls out on the full moon, or whatever) and not mess around with other peoples' rights to do the same?

I realize the opposition to this argument is endless, but I really don't understand how we (as a world, not as a smaller portion of the world, but we as single entities all sharing this planet) can't see yet that the thing that fucks us is the big group?  Obviously it makes things easier if the planet is divided up into continents/countries/provinces/states etc., but then you have to take the good with the bad when you're included in such a category.  So that means that ultimately, you'll never get to vote for a President that you FULLY agree with on EVERY point, or go to a war that is ABSOLUTELY necessary, or be completely proud of the entire population that you share boundaries with.

I've kind of lost my way, but man, the war thing, the fighting for fucking pointlessness (on both sides).  When are we going to really get it?

Great stuff EC!  I like the part about running naked in the forest singing to the moon, it remindes me of my favorite play of all time "Equis" (not sure that's how you spell it) has anyone seen it?  The boy ends up gouging out the eyes of all the horses.  Great play.