NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[marktwain]

saw the movie - I really liked it.  But there is a lot of nakedness.
It's by Peter Shaffer - same guy who did Amadeus.

[EC]

(It's spelled Equus - just so you know. :)  I only point it out because I like the way it looks with the two 'u's.  And it IS a great play, I agree.  ESPECIALLY the nakedness - har har)

[Oz]

Okay, here's a huge rant of my own.  :)

The thing that I never understood about patriotism and nationalism is that I never understood what difference it makes what country you're from, because, well, what exactly is a 'country' anyway? I mean, okay, so I'm from Holland. We have a prime minister whose guts I hate, we have laws that I do not agree with. This prime minister of ours has been talking about Dutch morals and values and has said that, for instance, moslims who come to our country should be taught the Dutch morals and values as an act of integration. Then ofcourse the debate started wich exactly are our shared values and ofcourse it was impossible to define them, because 16 million peope will never have shared values - just some lame compromises. We're all individuals who happen to live in an area that is geographically determined as being the country called Holland. We all happen to like the place where we live, wether it's a farm in Limburg with no other houses around for a few miles or just above a coffeeshop in the middle of Amsterdam. We all wanna stay at the place where we live and we need laws and stuff and since we like to live as nice as possible we try to make those laws as suitable as possible for our own needs and well, since the farmer from Limburg and the hooker from Amsterdam both have a say in that, while they have very different needs and values, the end result will be some compromise that some find alright and others hate. Now what is it that binds them? I would say, hardly anything. They do not share the same values, they do not share the same history, frankly, all that makes them Dutch is geography. Basically. So why would they be proud of being Dutch? The farmer can be proud of being a farmer. A coffeeshop-owner will probably appreciate the fact that it's somewhat semi-legal to own a coffeeshop in Holland. The farmer might hate that. But hey, he lives thousands of miles away from Amsterdam.

Now, I've just been talking about Holland, but when you bring this metaphor to the US, the contrast between the people who live there are really enormous. I mean, a Dr. Dre-fan who lives in The Bronx and has to fight hard everyday not to be killed and a 50-year old white guy who owns a grocery store in Texas and beats up his wife every night, or whatever; what the hell binds them? They're American. But what does being American mean, then? Do they share the same values? I wouldn't say so, right? So they have a president who's supported by, what, 56% of the country? (I forgot the exact number, sorry) So that means that Bush is what 'the American people'  want? I think that's bullshit. There's a bunch of people who geographically happen to live in a huge area that happens to be called one country, who have a huge number of different values, different morals, different wishes, different demands, and a slight majority now forces his will on to the rest of the country. I'm not saying that that proces is wrong, because I don't see any other way of leading a country so diverse either. Ofcourse you can't fulfill everyone's demands. You have to find some kind of compromise. But a compromise it is and a lot of people will be victims of that compromise. And this compromise is Bush. But he's not what 'the American people' want, for the main reason that 'the American people' is a crap concept that doesn't mean anything, in my opinion. The guy from The Bronx and the guy from Texas, they're not 'one people'. That's just bullshit. They do not share anything. So what the hell is there to be proud of? Okay, so maybe you're proud of that those two very distinct people can live in the same country. Fine. But what exactly does that mean? They couldn't live in the same street. They might hate each other's guts. They don't condone each other, hell, they basically live in another part of the world. It's just called one country. Or am I wrong here? The guy from The Bronx will not be glad with Bush, but he has to accept. The guy from Texas might think, wow, what a great country we have, we have all these great morals and values and we have this wonderful guy leading our country who is telling the world how it is and damn, I'm proud of this country! But he's just forcing his will on to the rest of the country. His being proud, in my opinion, is just pathetic.

I've never been proud of my country, because I've never felt part of my country. I live here, I like living here, because it's where I grew up and I might move to Belgium some time, but other than that I don't have the idea that I'd live better in any other country, so I don't feel the need to move. We have some laws that I like, some that I don't. Ofcourse I think it's cool that we are pretty free over here and we don't abuse our women (well, the most of us don't) and we can demonstrate against the government and smoke pot and drink beer when we're under 18, women can have abortions and gay people can kiss each other on the street and get married. That's all very great and therefore I like living in Holland better than I would in, I don't know, Turky, China or the United States. But should I be proud of my country, then? First of all, the whole concept of 'my country' is bullshit, because when I say my country agrees with those freedoms, I would forget that there are millions of people in those country who would rather see abortions, pot and gay marriages illegal. Some of the people in our government would, too. So the whole concept of my country being a free country is crap. There is no 'my country', in that sense. And being proud of someone from my country does or has done does, therefore, not mean anything to me. Sure, those freedoms are freedoms that some people have fought hard for. Those people are great. I honor those people. But how could I be proud of them? They're not me, right? They don't have anything to do with me. Now, I love what they've done and I might share their values and if there's anything I could do to keep Holland as free as it is at the moment, I would. I vote, I've been to demonstrations, whatever. But I refuse to see that as being proud of my country. Those concepts simply do not mean anything to me.

Now some of you might find the above ridiculous, naive, or coming from a 4-year-old. And I must say, I'd love to learn. Explain this concept to me. Because I really don't get your 'my country is the greatest'. I'd love to, but I don't. I'm sorry.

[Oz]

And yes, with the Dr. Dre-fan from The Bronx and the grocery store owner from Texas I used a pair of charicatures, but I didn't just do that to make fun of the USA. And if you would see it like that anyway, then notice that by using the farmer and the hooker/coffeeshop-owner I ridiculed Holland as well. So, no hard feelings. :)

[SmoothOprtr]

"It's by Peter Shaffer - same guy who did Amadeus."


Amadeus was directed by Milos Forman.

[SMc55]

That's right, but Peter Shaffer wrote the original play and adapted it for the screen.

[EC]

O, I love your post.  So much.  

[T]

O:
That's quite a rant.
Hopefully you were drunk, high or both.
Not saying that you're opinions are wrong or not valid but, damn, that's a hellavlotatypin'.

Personally, from the view of a 40 somethin' Canadian, and in 40 somethin' years you do learn quite a bit about the nature of people from different countries, methinks that perhaps you may be simplifying the issue somewhat.
Americans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

But, politics is politics and there ain't nothing you or I or Bill Clinton, hell, even George Clinton can do about it.

America is a complex country. Perhaps the most complex country in the world.
For one, it is a honest to goodness SUPERPOWER. Like it or not that is the double truth Ruth.
2) It's big. Geographically and popullation wise.
Not as big as China or India but we are talking about different kettles of fish here.
3)Rural America is far removed from urban America in politics, religious thinking and whatever you want to call culture.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......OK, here's the thing.
I'm a bit drunk right now and I forgot the point I was originally trying to make.

So.............let me finish this embarassing post with this,  Think of America as you would the EC.
Meaning in Europe each country has it's own separate identity forge through years of strife and conquest.
In America, each state has gone through many ups and downs not as a country but as individual states.

Oh fuck it. I really should only post when sober.

I shall end with this.

O, you should be proud of your country. It has shown over the years to be a country with incredible tolerance and open arms. Unfortunately when you open your arms you also invite things that you may regret for whatever reason.
That is the price one pays for tolerance. A price worth paying IMO.
You always get whiners who hate change.

To the Americans who like Bush.
He will be your president for another term. If this is what you want then that's fine. It's your country and you get the final say as it should be. Don't give a damn what the world thinks. If he works for you then support the man until the cows come home.
To the Americans who hate Bush.
In less than a handfull of years you will get another chance to vote in a Democrat.
Think about what you didn't do to help Kerry get elected and what you can do next time.

For myself, I love America and the folks in it. I have never cared for it's politics but I can say that about my own country as well.
I am proud of my country and it's people. We embrace and accept others. There is good and bad in this but I feel the good outweighs the bad.

That's it good night

[Oz]

O, I love your post.  So much.  

Thanks! I loved yours as well, by the way.  :)

[EC]

Okay T, you said you were drunk, so we'll go with that...

Americans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

But see I think you're missing O's point.  I think he's saying that it isn't right to lump everyone in together, good or bad.  Just over half of Americans who voted, voted for Bush.  Does that mean that America loves Bush?  No.  It means that just over half of Americans who voted, voted for Bush.

But, politics is politics and there ain't nothing you or I or Bill Clinton, hell, even George Clinton can do about it.

That's really fucking funny.

Think of America as you would the EC

Please don't do that.  I am nothing like America.  ;)

O, you should be proud of your country.

Firstly, you do know that O is from Holland and not America, right?  Secondly, why should O be proud of his country?  His entire post was about how he thinks it's ridiculous to be proud of his country.  Any country.  It's ridiculous to be proud of countries.  You can be proud of people, you can be proud of accomplishments.

To the Americans who like Bush.
He will be your president for another term. If this is what you want then that's fine. It's your country and you get the final say as it should be. Don't give a damn what the world thinks. If he works for you then support the man until the cows come home.
To the Americans who hate Bush.
In less than a handfull of years you will get another chance to vote in a Democrat.
Think about what you didn't do to help Kerry get elected and what you can do next time.

What's the point of voting if it doesn't matter who wins one way or another because everything will be cool eventually?

Hm.  That sounded harsh.  I don't mean for this post to sounds harsh at all.  I dug and appreciated the tone of your post (especially because you said "until the cows come home".)  

O, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, either.  :)

[Oz]

His entire post was about how he thinks it's ridiculous to be proud of his country.  Any country.  It's ridiculous to be proud of countries.  You can be proud of people, you can be proud of accomplishments.

My point exactly. Thank you. :)

[Oz]

Personally, from the view of a 40 somethin' Canadian, and in 40 somethin' years you do learn quite a bit about the nature of people from different countries, methinks that perhaps you may be simplifying the issue somewhat.
Americans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

Personally, though I am indeed just 22, I think that is simplifying the issue. "Americans are", how can you say that? There's billions, trillions, zillions of them, of different races, different colours, different opinions... How can you say there's a group called 'Americans' who all have the same qualities, or even say that 'America' is a concept that has certain qualities? I don't believe that. Don't get me wrong, I bet there are loads and loads of Americans who are wonderful, caring and so forth. All of you are, at least. But there are also loads and loads of Americans who are filthy sons of bitches. Right?

[T]

I know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

[Oz]

I know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

Haha, it's okay. Really, I'd like to know other people's opinion on this matter, so... please, give us the sober version. Anytime.  :)

[SMc55]

I know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

Oh dear.

It made perfect sense to me.

And I haven't been drinking  :-/

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

made sense to me.

drunk postings are good.  repeat after me...

[The Boar]

"Americans are", how can you say that? There's billions, trillions, zillions of them, of different races, different colours, different opinions... How can you say there's a group called 'Americans' who all have the same qualities, or even say that 'America' is a concept that has certain qualities? I don't believe that.

O, I found your post extremely interesting, and agree with much of it. While I am admittedly proud to be an American, I think that I would have been equally proud to be a Scots-Irishman, German, Pole, etc. (my ethnic heritage) if my circumstances were different. I have always believed that there are other aspects of my own life (e.g. religion, family, friends) that better define who I am as a person.
 
However, as I said, I think one can be proud of one's country; I can't defend every country but I can present an argument as to why I think most Americans are proud of their country. You pointed out the diversity and disparity amongst Americans, whether it be their opinions, their qualities of life, their ways of making a living, their heritages, their ideals and values, etc. However, what unites Americans is the fact that they are American, whether by birthright or by immigrant desire or by expatriate remembrance. Whether or not Americans even buy into the normal ideology of their country (a value on individual freedoms, the opportunity to improve one's state in life, a commitment to caring for one's neighbor and making our country better, etc.) is, in my mind, irrelevant -- the fact is, they are part of the country.  
 
I think there are people living in America who are not Americans, and this is not just those that have immigrated to here from other nations. It includes those Americans that don't care about the country, that have no interest in the welfare of others or of a concept larger than themselves.  
 
However, I would argue that the majority of Americans love America in the same way, though on a larger scale, that they love a sports team, a religion, or a writer/musician/artist. Sure, they are not as closely connected on a daily basis as they are with these other things. Yet, in some way, Americans identify with the concept, the idea of America -- Americans find their identity (to a greater or lesser extent) in America, just as America finds its identity in the lives and ideals of its people.  
 
I will be the first to admit that America has not always lived up to its ideals and values and, in my opinion, has been getting worse of late. But the concept of America striving to improve itself and improve the lives of its citizens (and even, if needed, others around the world) is still present, and still the same ideal to be striven for.
Just because we fail to reach our goal does not make our goal unattainable or unworthy of even our attempting.
 
I think the reason I love and am proud of my country is the fact that I care about what happens to it. If I did not care, then I would not be proud of it and thus I would not be an American. Indeed, some of our greatest patriots are those that stand up for what they feel is right for our country in the face of opposition. O, as you said, you are pleased by some of the things that Holland has done and disgusted by other things. The fact that you are even pleased/disgusted indicates, I think, a certain pride that you take in your own country and the way in which it handles itself.
 
These are my random thoughts. You may begin to pick them apart.   ;)

[lfish]

I don't fully agree with O. I can follow him at some point, but maybe an important issue has been let out of this discussion.  

If we go back to the origin of human mankind, we can say that at the beginning we all were animals, just as we still are now. Then we had some typical patterns of survival, just as we have now.  At that time only one law ruled: the survival of the strongest and the fittest.  Every day we needed to find food, habitation, protect our own territory,... just like we do today. But the way we do it has changed.  During many many zillion and trillion years, we became more sophisticated, developped and learned to behave like we behave today (for some people, this behavior can still be referred as animal behavior  ;D). But some basis needs still remain.

The majority and maybe every human being, wants desperately to find a place where he feels at home, where things are familiar. For many people that's their hometown, their country, or maybe if you keep enlarging the picture, the world.  Just like in the old days,nowadays people hate it when their territory is threatened.  They want to protect it at all cost (look at Fallujah or the conflict between Israel and Palestine)

You don't want to protect something where you are not proud of, you don't believe in, not?  The majority of the people are proud of the place where they grew up, the place they were born or the place they're living.  I see this purely as an individual experience and therefore every individual has the right to be proud of his place where he feels at home.  But a lot of individual experiences creates a group-feeling.  If we go to far with this, we create nationalism is the most negative meaning of the word.

And even if we differ so much from each other( the hooker in amsterdam to the farmer in Eindhoven), we still can have a similar feeling of proudness for the same area, we look at with different eyes.

[Oz]

Boar and Lfish, those were quite interesting posts, I must say! I'll try to react on your posts by picking two quotes from you:

The fact that you are even pleased/disgusted indicates, I think, a certain pride that you take in your own country and the way in which it handles itself.

Well, I was a bit surprised when reading this, because, though I do not agree with the word 'pride', I realised that I do care about Holland an living there more than I thought. I guess I too have the group-feeling Lfish talks about, I'm almost afraid to admit. But more about that below; first, I think that it's mainly the word 'pride' that bothers me. You can be proud of something you've achieved, or maybe of things that people close to you have achieved. But what's the achievement in being born and growing up somewhere? You can love your country, I'll go with that... The posts of T, The Boar and Lfish have made me realise that that is not as wrong as I thought and it can even be beautiful. But pride? I still don't get that.

The majority and maybe every human being, wants desperately to find a place where he feels at home, where things are familiar. For many people that's their hometown, their country, or maybe if you keep enlarging the picture, the world.  Just like in the old days,nowadays people hate it when their territory is threatened.  They want to protect it at all cost (look at Fallujah or the conflict between Israel and Palestine)

Yes, okay, that's true and I feel the same way when it comes to, for instance, the city where I live. I like living there, so I would try to protect it. That's because of different aspects, including the people. I like living amongst them, they make me feel at home. I feel safe here. But I think the concept of a 'country' is so difficult, because, well, the guy in the Bronx and the guy in Texas have very different homes. right? I think it's logical that they want to protect their homes, but a place like USA, that's hardly one country, is it? That's not 'one home'. I can understand that you feel connected with your home city, because you live there and you 'know' all the people that live there, but a 'country', especially when it comes to the USA, wich in my opinion is merely one country by name, I deem that too abstract to really feel connected with. Like the thing with sports. I never got how you can be excited when a sporter from your country wins. You don't know the guy, you might hate his guts if you would meet him in real life. The whole soccer thing, there are millions of people who normally don't watch soccer, except once every 2 years with the European and the worldwide compititions. Why? Why the hell would you give a damn when your national football team wins? That sort of loving your country, well, I just can't follow it. But yes, the protecting-your-home kind, I feel that too.

[lfish]

I feel safe here. But I think the concept of a 'country' is so difficult, because, well, the guy in the Bronx and the guy in Texas have very different homes. right?

That's true indeed.  They do have different homes and they do have different backgrounds, but two things are important here.  First of all, education plays a very important role.  The many lessons of history we received through the years, allows us exactly to know what good "deeds" our country did or did not do. In other words we know some facts and figures we can or cannot identify ourselves with.  I believe many Americans can identify theirselves and feel a certain pride when they know that fellow Americans helped the weak Europe during and after the war. They did it for the good cause.  It is also possible that now, many Americans can not identify theirselves with the war in Iraq.   Those examples indicate that a country, which is a complex thing, is sometimes not so complex for the person itself.  We pick some things out of a big jar, things we can ourselves identify with and we glue it to the concept "country".  And those things can be different according to the person we're talking with.

A second thing is the fact people like to distinct theirselves from other human beings.  If we would all be the same, this world would be very boring. So, we try to distinct ourselves from our parents, neighbours, bosses, ... (and at the same time look for common things, like we do here on the forum). This distinction does not only occur on individual level but also on (inter)national level.  If two countries play a footballmatch it is much easier to distinct yourself with your nationality (especially when you're winning), than with the opponent's clothes.  And the good deeds or the positive things that you glued to the concept country, will emerge from the background.

So my point is, regardless the complexity of the concept "country", every individual looks for several aspects he can identify himself with, no matter what his background, profession, ...  is.