Baseball Thread...

[capt. scotty]

I realize money doesnt buy championships, but it sure makes it a hell of a lot easier. The BoSox havent won 2 or 3 championships the last 5 years bc their teams salary was in the bottom half of the league, they won because their team was loaded with big money player, among other things. Tampa Bay was a great story, but wasnt that the biggest turnaround in 35 years or something?? That doesnt happen every year.

Whether the Yanks win it all this year or not, its totally bogus their is no salary cap. There will be good stories every once in awhile, and maybe CC wont pitch to his capabilities, but that doesnt remove the notion that having no salary cap is utterly ridiculous and is just another reason why the sport isnt what it once was.

[aMillionDreams]

You know, after thinking about it for a bit, I think you're right Cap'n.  Maybe the Rays were just a miracle team.  I don't know.  I do know that my Reds are working on their 9th losing season in a row and the Yankees have the four highest paid players in BB on their team and counting.  If the yanks sign ManRam, I think there will be a major uproar.

[Jaimoe]

You know, after thinking about it for a bit, I think you're right Cap'n.  Maybe the Rays were just a miracle team.  I don't know.  I do know that my Reds are working on their 9th losing season in a row and the Yankees have the four highest paid players in BB on their team and counting.  If the yanks sign ManRam, I think there will be a major uproar.

The Rays aren't a miracle team. They sucked for decades and finally their high draft picks and farm system starting paying off. Plus, the "Devil" Rays have good owners now too. Now,  they gotta get that new stadium up and running and maybe the fans may start showing up during the regular season.

[aMillionDreams]

You know, after thinking about it for a bit, I think you're right Cap'n.  Maybe the Rays were just a miracle team.  I don't know.  I do know that my Reds are working on their 9th losing season in a row and the Yankees have the four highest paid players in BB on their team and counting.  If the yanks sign ManRam, I think there will be a major uproar.

The Rays aren't a miracle team. They sucked for decades and finally their high draft picks and farm system starting paying off. Plus, the "Devil" Rays have good owners now too. Now,  they gotta get that new stadium up and running and maybe the fans may start showing up during the regular season.

Maybe "miracle" is overstating it.  But do you really think the team with best record in baseball is going to have such a low salary this year?  Even the Rays, now that their high-draft picks have paid-off, they are going to have to pay those guys or lose them, probably to the Red Sox or Yankees.  It may not be a miracle, but it's not something we can expect to happen every year.

[Jaimoe]

You know, after thinking about it for a bit, I think you're right Cap'n.  Maybe the Rays were just a miracle team.  I don't know.  I do know that my Reds are working on their 9th losing season in a row and the Yankees have the four highest paid players in BB on their team and counting.  If the yanks sign ManRam, I think there will be a major uproar.

The Rays aren't a miracle team. They sucked for decades and finally their high draft picks and farm system starting paying off. Plus, the "Devil" Rays have good owners now too. Now,  they gotta get that new stadium up and running and maybe the fans may start showing up during the regular season.

Maybe "miracle" is overstating it.  But do you really think the team with best record in baseball is going to have such a low salary this year?  Even the Rays, now that their high-draft picks have paid-off, they are going to have to pay those guys or lose them, probably to the Red Sox or Yankees.  It may not be a miracle, but it's not something we can expect to happen every year.

It all depends. I don't think the Rays owners will "Go Marlins" and start to unload all their players when contracts come up.

[bold99]

You know, after thinking about it for a bit, I think you're right Cap'n.  Maybe the Rays were just a miracle team.  I don't know.  I do know that my Reds are working on their 9th losing season in a row and the Yankees have the four highest paid players in BB on their team and counting.  If the yanks sign ManRam, I think there will be a major uproar.

The Rays aren't a miracle team. They sucked for decades and finally their high draft picks and farm system starting paying off. Plus, the "Devil" Rays have good owners now too. Now,  they gotta get that new stadium up and running and maybe the fans may start showing up during the regular season.

Maybe "miracle" is overstating it.  But do you really think the team with best record in baseball is going to have such a low salary this year?  Even the Rays, now that their high-draft picks have paid-off, they are going to have to pay those guys or lose them, probably to the Red Sox or Yankees.  It may not be a miracle, but it's not something we can expect to happen every year.

$ is always going to be a factor but I think once the playoffs start you throw that out the window.  Anything can happen in the playoffs.  I personally don't want a league where everthing is equal.  I think that is what separates baseball from other sports....I want to see teams dominate and then get taken down and upset (i'm saying this as a yankee fan).  I agree it is not fair to the lower level teams but there are always going to be those Minn, Oak and TB teams with low salaries who make the playoffs.  Look at the last 10 years or so, a lot of those teams have made the playoffs and some have won.  I love that wildcard teams win championships also.

[.Walt]

yankee fans really have no clue on what it's like. they don't. they sign a bunch of players to huge contracts. they set the bar too high. players don't want to come to minnesota unless we out bid the yankees. they don't know want it's like having players go through your system, do good, and then leave for bigger money. if i were a yankee fan, i wouldn't mind seeing an upset. because you know after the season you'll spend, you'll have a fun off season, and back to winning again. it's a joke, it's a flat out joke. if things go bad for the twins, you never know how long it will last. i really don't take yankees fanhood that seriously. it's too easy to be a yankees fan. doesn't take much. i'm sure they've never even looked at the triple-A team stats during the season and thought of future yankees. i bet they don't even know where their minor league teams are located. the fact that the yankees win championships doesn't make their fans better fans. it makes the fans lazy and makes them think they deserve championships. i bet yankee fans were bulls fans in the 90's.

[bold99]

yankee fans really have no clue on what it's like. they don't. they sign a bunch of players to huge contracts. they set the bar too high. players don't want to come to minnesota unless we out bid the yankees. they don't know want it's like having players go through your system, do good, and then leave for bigger money. if i were a yankee fan, i wouldn't mind seeing an upset. because you know after the season you'll spend, you'll have a fun off season, and back to winning again. it's a joke, it's a flat out joke. if things go bad for the twins, you never know how long it will last. i really don't take yankees fanhood that seriously. it's too easy to be a yankees fan. doesn't take much. i'm sure they've never even looked at the triple-A team stats during the season and thought of future yankees. i bet they don't even know where their minor league teams are located. the fact that the yankees win championships doesn't make their fans better fans. it makes the fans lazy and makes them think they deserve championships. i bet yankee fans were bulls fans in the 90's.

bitter much?  Actually all I do is check up on the Yankee farm.  Its what won us 4 championships in the late 90's.  and you obviously were not alive from 1979-1995 you know when the Twins won 2 championships.....Yankees didn't exactly have a great team.  Being a Minnesota fan doesn't make you a better fan either.  A fan is a fan, its what team you like.  I grew up when the Yankees sucked.

[Ruckus]

yankee fans really have no clue on what it's like. they don't. they sign a bunch of players to huge contracts. they set the bar too high. players don't want to come to minnesota unless we out bid the yankees. they don't know want it's like having players go through your system, do good, and then leave for bigger money. if i were a yankee fan, i wouldn't mind seeing an upset. because you know after the season you'll spend, you'll have a fun off season, and back to winning again. it's a joke, it's a flat out joke. if things go bad for the twins, you never know how long it will last. i really don't take yankees fanhood that seriously. it's too easy to be a yankees fan. doesn't take much. i'm sure they've never even looked at the triple-A team stats during the season and thought of future yankees. i bet they don't even know where their minor league teams are located. the fact that the yankees win championships doesn't make their fans better fans. it makes the fans lazy and makes them think they deserve championships. i bet yankee fans were bulls fans in the 90's.

bitter much?  Actually all I do is check up on the Yankee farm.  Its what won us 4 championships in the late 90's.  and you obviously were not alive from 1979-1995 you know when the Twins won 2 championships.....Yankees didn't exactly have a great team.  Being a Minnesota fan doesn't make you a better fan either.  A fan is a fan, its what team you like.  I grew up when the Yankees sucked.

Seconded.  I must admit, I have officially left the Yankees' nest for now.  

The first pack of baseball cards I bought was an 87' Topps pack and the first card was a Don Mattingly card.  I checked my Beckett's that I bought at the same time and saw that it was the most highly valued card of that set at the time.  I instantly became a Yankee fan.  As fate would have it, my father took a job on Long Island in 88 and we left LA for the Island.  I was a die hard Yankee fan from 88-95 when they sucked although they did make the playoffs in 95 and blew 3 in a row against the Mariners.  It was not until I moved to Chicago in 96 that they won their first championship in 18 years.  In that time, the Twins had won 2 as you mentioned earlier.  Those were some great teams and I loved Kent Hrbek and Kirby Puckett!!!  IN the eight years I lived in the NY area, they did nothing and were much less competitive than the Twins have been over the past decade.

Just remember that one should not generalize about fans of a team.  One could argue that we are jealous of the capable front office management that the Twins have had for so long.

I will agree with Walt that it has become difficult for me because we are buying out of desperation and because we can.  I was hoping we could have some bad years but build around Wang, Cano, Joba and maybe even Tabata (though he's looking more and more like Ruben Rivera).  Instead we took the easy rout and it has been offputting for me.

While baseball could benefit from a salary cap, it hasn't happened because the owners from small markets have happily "collectively bargained" to have a luxury tax.  They still operate in the black and are happy.

As for players not wanting to come to Minnesota, you have to remember that players, just like normal people, weigh their job opportunities accordingly.

Texeira may have made more money with the Nationals but living in NY and being happy made a little more sense I guess.

Don't hate the fans for there are douchy fans from all teams.  There are just more Sox and Yankees fans unfortunately.

Until Selig and the owners step up to the plate, this will not change.  The fans have spoken with their wallets and so the players union remains uber powerful.

We shall see when they go into bargaining again.

[Ruckus]

I realize money doesnt buy championships, but it sure makes it a hell of a lot easier. The BoSox havent won 2 or 3 championships the last 5 years bc their teams salary was in the bottom half of the league, they won because their team was loaded with big money player, among other things. Tampa Bay was a great story, but wasnt that the biggest turnaround in 35 years or something?? That doesnt happen every year.

Whether the Yanks win it all this year or not, its totally bogus their is no salary cap. There will be good stories every once in awhile, and maybe CC wont pitch to his capabilities, but that doesnt remove the notion that having no salary cap is utterly ridiculous and is just another reason why the sport isnt what it once was.

I live in Baltimore now where all the locals yearn for the halcyon days of old where the O's were great.  The funny thing is that they sell more tickets now in Camden (even now) then they ever did in Memorial Stadium when they were good.  People tend to forget that attendance numbers are through the roof across the country in MLB so its popularity has increased greatly in this era of payroll disparity.

I too would love to see the Royals compete again like they did in the mid 80s but perhaps some markets just weren't meant to be for baseball.

There were more dynasties in the past than there are now except for the Yankees run in the late 90s and there was never a salary cap.

I guess I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here but you cannot blame the fans or the players for this.  If the small market owners don't grow some balls and step up to the plate instead of pathetically acquiescing to guaranteed revenue sharing, this may change in the future.

[Jaimoe]

As long as the O's have that fucking idiot owner, they'll never return to glory. Pat Gillick was run out of town by that moron Angelos and Pat continues to be one of the brightest men in all of baseball.

Anyone planning on watching the World Baseball Classic in March/April? Naturally the US will have a killer team, but the Japanese and Dominicans will be tough. Don't count out my scrappy Canucks either with Morneau, Russell Martin and Jason Bay on board.

[Ruckus]

As long as the O's have that fucking idiot owner, they'll never return to glory. Pat Gillick was run out of town by that moron Angelos and Pat continues to be one of the brightest men in all of baseball.

Anyone planning on watching the World Baseball Classic in March/April? Naturally the US will have a killer team, but the Japanese and Dominicans will be tough. Don't count out my scrappy Canucks either with Morneau, Russell Martin and Jason Bay on board.

Agreed on Angelos.  That guy is making a fortune with his MASN contract and is not reinvesting it in the team.  They did make a strong offer for Texeira though and bringing in McPhail has brought some hope.  

I WILL be watching the World Baseball Classic.  I am originally from Japan and will be rooting for them again.  Though an American citizen now, it's so hard to let go of your ethnic roots, particularly when they are the underdog against the mighty US team.

And yes, Canadian baseball is getting pretty good.  Adam Loewen anyone?  ....Ahhh back when Larry Walker was juiced ;)

[Jaimoe]

As long as the O's have that fucking idiot owner, they'll never return to glory. Pat Gillick was run out of town by that moron Angelos and Pat continues to be one of the brightest men in all of baseball.

Anyone planning on watching the World Baseball Classic in March/April? Naturally the US will have a killer team, but the Japanese and Dominicans will be tough. Don't count out my scrappy Canucks either with Morneau, Russell Martin and Jason Bay on board.

Agreed on Angelos.  That guy is making a fortune with his MASN contract and is not reinvesting it in the team.  They did make a strong offer for Texeira though and bringing in McPhail has brought some hope.  

I WILL be watching the World Baseball Classic.  I am originally from Japan and will be rooting for them again.  Though an American citizen now, it's so hard to let go of your ethnic roots, particularly when they are the underdog against the mighty US team.

And yes, Canadian baseball is getting pretty good.  Adam Loewen anyone?  ....Ahhh back when Larry Walker was juiced ;)

Please tell me you didn't have to give up your Japanese citizenship? I really want to go to Japan. My best friend is Japanese-Canadian and my first cousin has lived in Japan for 15 years. I'm drawn to the country and not just because of my love of Beat Takeshi, Kurosawa and Matsui.

Loewen is going to give it a go as a fielder. He was a stellar all-round player when he was in college. Walker was a great player. I'm liking the Canadian starting pitching staff (if they all get on-board): Jeff Francis, Rich Harden and Ryan Dempster. Erik Bedard is out due to recent shoulder surgery.

[capt. scotty]

I realize money doesnt buy championships, but it sure makes it a hell of a lot easier. The BoSox havent won 2 or 3 championships the last 5 years bc their teams salary was in the bottom half of the league, they won because their team was loaded with big money player, among other things. Tampa Bay was a great story, but wasnt that the biggest turnaround in 35 years or something?? That doesnt happen every year.

Whether the Yanks win it all this year or not, its totally bogus their is no salary cap. There will be good stories every once in awhile, and maybe CC wont pitch to his capabilities, but that doesnt remove the notion that having no salary cap is utterly ridiculous and is just another reason why the sport isnt what it once was.

I live in Baltimore now where all the locals yearn for the halcyon days of old where the O's were great.  The funny thing is that they sell more tickets now in Camden (even now) then they ever did in Memorial Stadium when they were good.  People tend to forget that attendance numbers are through the roof across the country in MLB so its popularity has increased greatly in this era of payroll disparity.

I too would love to see the Royals compete again like they did in the mid 80s but perhaps some markets just weren't meant to be for baseball.

There were more dynasties in the past than there are now except for the Yankees run in the late 90s and there was never a salary cap.

I guess I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here but you cannot blame the fans or the players for this.  If the small market owners don't grow some balls and step up to the plate instead of pathetically acquiescing to guaranteed revenue sharing, this may change in the future.

I dont blame fans or players for teams like NYY, NYM, BOS, and a few others, its totally on upper management and MLB executives and Selig.

You and Bold can talk all you want about the Yanks down years, but in those down years, the FA was not like it is today - part of the reason you went through such a drought (was there a salary cap 15+ years ago??). Players werent getting big contracts from just a handful of teams, they either stayed with their team or were traded, I believe bc FA didnt even exist over 20 years ago.

As a Pirate fan, I know teams like us will never have a shot with the way the baseball market is today. Teams like Tampa Bay are very few and far between. I think Jaimoe said they got there bc of their drafting and developing players in their farm system, and for a team like them or Pittsburgh, that is the ONLY way to have a shot at the palyoffs. In all liklihood, all but a couple of those young stars will remain there bc they cant afford them. Pittsburgh has had a top 10 pick for the last 15 years, and we have only had 1 prospect turn out to be a better than average MLB player - Aramis Ramirez - who was traded once he was realized as a legit MLB player and the Buccos knew they couldnt sign him. The rest of our picks were busts, and some years our GM or whoever even passed on players bc they thought we couldnt afford to sign our own 1st round draft pick. Ridiculous.

Yanks fans can go back pre-1996 to when they struggled for 20 years or whatever, and I dont blame fans for this perspective, but there is FA right now and this system of FA where the highest bidder only comes from less than 1/3 of the league is nearly a monopoly on baseball

[Jaimoe]

I feel for smaller market teams like the Twins, KC, Pitt etc... Toronto isn't a small market, but we have to deal with the Canadian dollar conversion rate and worst of all, playing in the AL East. Of course the Jays won back-to-back World Series, but its been a constant struggle to lure free agents to Toronto without blowing the cap and budget (and a "hidden" issue regarding some US players not wanting to live in a foreign country).

Toronto has also had an inconsistent drafting record since Gord Ash left to Brewers 7 or so years ago. If Toronto had drafted better under J.P. Riccardi, the Jays wouldn't be mired in mediocrity, big payroll or not... and the Jays payroll was around $100 million last year. Of course having key injuries and under-performing stars doesn't help (not including the Jays killer pitching staff).

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not all about throwing money around. You need structure and a vision too (i.e., good management and ownership).

[pawpaw]

Basically what I'm saying is that it's not all about throwing money around. You need structure and a vision too (i.e., good management and ownership).

Yeah, look at the Raiders! Oh, sorry...wrong thread.  >:( ;D

[bold99]

oh and whoever the Baltimore fans are....you guys had the highest payroll in baseball in 98' I think so right there shows you that doesn't mean much...I don't think they even made the playoffs.

I don't blame people for hating the Yankees but I think it has more to do with winning than $.  Once the Sox started winning the hatred shifted...just remember when the Yankees were winning from 96'-00' they did it with mostly homegrown players like Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, Bernie, Posada..you can talk free agents all you want but that is what wins championships.  When the Yankees started spending like crazy and going after free agents is when they started losing like the last 8 years.  Which is why in the last few years Cashman had a plan to not go after the big guns and stick with the farm guys like Hughes and Kennedy.  They passed on Santana, Vlad, Beltran in those years...but I think this offseason with a lot of $ coming off the books and them not making the playoffs it was a no brainer that they were going to have a big offseason.

[.Walt]

oh and whoever the Baltimore fans are....you guys had the highest payroll in baseball in 98' I think so right there shows you that doesn't mean much...I don't think they even made the playoffs.

I don't blame people for hating the Yankees but I think it has more to do with winning than $.  Once the Sox started winning the hatred shifted...just remember when the Yankees were winning from 96'-00' they did it with mostly homegrown players like Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, Bernie, Posada..you can talk free agents all you want but that is what wins championships.  When the Yankees started spending like crazy and going after free agents is when they started losing like the last 8 years.  Which is why in the last few years Cashman had a plan to not go after the big guns and stick with the farm guys like Hughes and Kennedy.  They passed on Santana, Vlad, Beltran in those years...but I think this offseason with a lot of $ coming off the books and them not making the playoffs it was a no brainer that they were going to have a big offseason.

yeah sorry about my message earlier. i am bitter.  ;)

it's just funny...how it seems so strange and weird that the yankee's actually keep two pitchers that they drafted. and it's shocking that they didn't sign vlad, santana, or beltran. that's just another day in the life for pretty much every other team.

i'm loving all the baseball talk!

[Ruckus]

To sum up my thoughts, I agree that it must suck to be a KC or Pitt fan.  The O's did have the highest payroll but they were reaping in the benefits of a brand new stadium when it was cool to have a new stadium and people were traveling from everywhere to come just to see the Camden Yards.  They led the majors in attendance for 2 or 3 years in a row.  When they didn't win and were in the red, they went the way of many a smaller market team.

I am for a salary cap in baseball but that is up to the owners and without getting into complex economics, they believe this current set up maximizes potential profit for all owners at the expense of fans in certain markets.  I mean prior to the Expos moving to Washington, they pulled almost twice as much in revenue sharing as they paid out in payroll (Not sure about this but could swear I read this somewhere).

Yes, good management and shrewd drafting can lead to Marlins and Rays, although the Marlins did buy their first WS winning team.  But I do agree with the haters that what a large payroll does is virtually guarantee you a playoff spot or at least put you in the hunt while those in small markets are left to hope to be that one team that makes it i.e. Oakland and those aforementioned.

And the meek shall inherit the MLB

[capt. scotty]

I am for a salary cap in baseball but that is up to the owners and without getting into complex economics, they believe this current set up maximizes potential profit for all owners at the expense of fans in certain markets.  I mean prior to the Expos moving to Washington, they pulled almost twice as much in revenue sharing as they paid out in payroll (Not sure about this but could swear I read this somewhere).

PNC Park is 1 of the nicest ballparks in the league to watch a game at, maybe the best (Not saying this myself, saying bc multiple ppl Ive talked to in the lot say this). We dont typically sell games out, but for how bad the team is, Pittsburgh sells a good amount of tickets, especially on teh weekends.

However, the money whoever makes on revenue from from games does not equate to those same people spending more $$$ on FA players.

There should be a salary cap. End of story.