Train Wreck

[darkglow]

You make great points darkglow, but the only thing I disagree with saying that the right has equally good ideas to the left.  the right simply does not.  their policies are proven failures.  trickle down, Reaganomics, flat taxes, etc etc.  failure after failure. 

the problem with this one team against another.. is that libertarians and independents like ron paul and jesse ventura have to basically pick a side or else get outvoted by people who are voting for the best chance to beat the party they hate vice the best choice that fits their moral values..

jesse ventura.. despite all the conspiracy theory looney talk.. left as governor of Minnesota with a budget that was in the "BLACK" which means he solved the debt problem there.

ron paul.. despite his flaws as a creationist bozo.. believes in the abolishment of social agendas run by the government to overextend our resources.. yet he still has the decency to understand what it would do to those who depend on those agenda and is at least offering options to alleviate the short-term negative effects it would bring to those people..

they're forced into running in the republican party because they know that it's their only shot at mounting a unified assault on the current set of players in office...

it's really sad that Sarah Palin is allowed to distract the american masses from the real social issues at hand.. instead we'd like to watch a documentary filmed of her family and how it must be to live the "good life"

[kydiddle]

Gotta agree with darkglow on this one. There are a LOT of Republicans I hate and same with Democrats, however, I don't buy into the sentiment that if you call yourself a Republican then you automatically ascribe to every leaning or sentiment associated with the party. Same with the other side. The "talking heads" and pundits (from both parties) have created such a divide in the political spectrum that candidates who have middle ground values are basically screwed. I believe in fiscal responsibility and individual rights as a citizen as well as planned parenthood and a woman's right to have an abortion, but I don't believe in unnecessary wars or a government that is too big. A government that can give everything to its people can also take everything away. So where's my candidate? Candidates aren't allowed to have mixed views on issues either, because politics today have turned into a world of extremist beliefs with no one crossing party lines to work through the problems in this country.

[Tracy 2112]

Candidates aren't allowed to have mixed views on issues either, because politics today have turned into a world of extremist beliefs with no one crossing party lines to work through the problems in this country.

I partly blame the 24 hour news cycle for this and the fact that we are turning into an ADD nation. Politicians are sound bites that identify with being on the left or right. And let's face it, if the Dems and Reps can "share" or "switch back and forth" the power (like the usually do) every 2,4,6 years, neither of them have reason to change. It keeps them both in cycles of power and it keeps the corporations they support in business.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Gotta agree with darkglow on this one. There are a LOT of Republicans I hate and same with Democrats, however, I don't buy into the sentiment that if you call yourself a Republican then you automatically ascribe to every leaning or sentiment associated with the party. Same with the other side. The "talking heads" and pundits (from both parties) have created such a divide in the political spectrum that candidates who have middle ground values are basically screwed. I believe in fiscal responsibility and individual rights as a citizen as well as planned parenthood and a woman's right to have an abortion, but I don't believe in unnecessary wars or a government that is too big. A government that can give everything to its people can also take everything away. So where's my candidate? Candidates aren't allowed to have mixed views on issues either, because politics today have turned into a world of extremist beliefs with no one crossing party lines to work through the problems in this country.

of course.  but there are plenty of "Moderate Republicans" who are supporting your views on these very issues right now in congress.  They're called democrats. 

[kydiddle]

Gotta agree with darkglow on this one. There are a LOT of Republicans I hate and same with Democrats, however, I don't buy into the sentiment that if you call yourself a Republican then you automatically ascribe to every leaning or sentiment associated with the party. Same with the other side. The "talking heads" and pundits (from both parties) have created such a divide in the political spectrum that candidates who have middle ground values are basically screwed. I believe in fiscal responsibility and individual rights as a citizen as well as planned parenthood and a woman's right to have an abortion, but I don't believe in unnecessary wars or a government that is too big. A government that can give everything to its people can also take everything away. So where's my candidate? Candidates aren't allowed to have mixed views on issues either, because politics today have turned into a world of extremist beliefs with no one crossing party lines to work through the problems in this country.

of course.  but there are plenty of "Moderate Republicans" who are supporting your views on these very issues right now in congress.  They're called democrats.

Oh, Sticky. Don't let them hear you call them "Moderate Republicans...."

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I'm referencing what noam chomsky said in a lecture in wales (I think).  It's on youtube in 3parts, I'll look for it when I get home.   Chomsky points out how today Reagan would be seen as extremely liberal as far as republicans go.  There has been and continues to be a dramatic shift towards the right.  that's all I'm saying.  It's undeniable.

I'm pretty sure gay marriage and abortion is an issue because 78percent of american's are christian.

also, let's not forget we live in a country where half the populations believes that the world was created a few thousands years ago exactly as it is now, fossils and all. a third of the population thinks that every word of the bible is literally true. 90percent believe in miracles. two thirds are expecting the second coming. When I think about how religiously extreme our country is it makes my head explode.

Those christians make up the majority of the republican base.   

[Shug]

Yeah and the weird thing is that Jesus' teachings were all about taking care of the poor, weak, and vulnerable, forgiving mistakes, being compassionate and being humble.  All of those things are the opposite of the right wing/conservative political agenda in America, which as far as I can see is about the rich and powerful selfishly trying to remain rich and powerful, no matter how many lives they destroy and how badly they fuck up the environment.  I don't know how anybody can be a right wing conservative and still call themselves a follower of Christ.  Just goes to show how fucked up the institution of so called Christianity has become.

[Randall]

Yeah and the weird thing is that Jesus' teachings were all about taking care of the poor, weak, and vulnerable, forgiving mistakes, being compassionate and being humble.  All of those things are the opposite of the right wing/conservative political agenda in America, which as far as I can see is about the rich and powerful selfishly trying to remain rich and powerful, no matter how many lives they destroy and how badly they fuck up the environment.  I don't know how anybody can be a right wing conservative and still call themselves a follower of Christ.  Just goes to show how fucked up the institution of so called Christianity has become.

I too often wonder about this.

[jaye]

  I will never understand why any member of the working poor would support republicans/conservative.

I agree w/ pretty much everything you say, but this is the bottom freaking line for me.  I don't get it.   I see so many poor people laid off from their jobs, no health insurance, can't afford COBRA with their unemployment, but they watch Fox news and spout the right wing bs and they're mislead and I don't fucking get it.  What do they think the Republicans will do for them??

All our problems would be solved if we just let the rich get richer and let it trickle down?  REALLY??

[Tracy 2112]

  I will never understand why any member of the working poor would support republicans/conservative.

I agree w/ pretty much everything you say, but this is the bottom freaking line for me.  I don't get it.   I see so many poor people laid off from their jobs, no health insurance, can't afford COBRA with their unemployment, but they watch Fox news and spout the right wing bs and they're mislead and I don't fucking get it.  What do they think the Republicans will do for them??

All our problems would be solved if we just let the rich get richer and let it trickle down?  REALLY??

I voted for Obama, but one thing the Dems fail to realize is that in a capitalistic society there will ALWAYS be poor people. PERIOD. I think some Dems have this idea they will somehow create a society where  there will NOT being a working poor, but there will ALWAYS be a working poor. Someobody has to clean Al Gore's and John Kerry's pools, right? Someone has to drive Bill Clinton's limo and somone will have to wait on Nancy Pelosi. Trust me, tose fat cats can talk all day, but they ain't giving shit up to some wealth redistribution   ;D

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

  I will never understand why any member of the working poor would support republicans/conservative.

I agree w/ pretty much everything you say, but this is the bottom freaking line for me.  I don't get it.   I see so many poor people laid off from their jobs, no health insurance, can't afford COBRA with their unemployment, but they watch Fox news and spout the right wing bs and they're mislead and I don't fucking get it.  What do they think the Republicans will do for them??

All our problems would be solved if we just let the rich get richer and let it trickle down?  REALLY??

I voted for Obama, but one thing the Dems fail to realize is that in a capitalistic society there will ALWAYS be poor people. PERIOD. I think some Dems have this idea they will somehow create a society where  there will NOT being a working poor, but there will ALWAYS be a working poor. Someobody has to clean Al Gore's and John Kerry's pools, right? Someone has to drive Bill Clinton's limo and somone will have to wait on Nancy Pelosi. Trust me, tose fat cats can talk all day, but they ain't giving shit up to some wealth redistribution   ;D

good points tracy.  I agreed with you for once.  BUT at the same time the american dream is an idea based on the fact that there would be a strong middle class.  a majority middle class.  not 400 people having more money than the bottom 50percent combined.  so where do we go from here?  rich people bitch about being taxed and they are paying less than they did in the 1950's.  I don't understand how conservatives get away with it and don't understand how people can support them.  I don't see the carrot.  what are they dangling that is worth chasing?  large tax breaks for the wealthy?  no more unions?  it's nuts.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

  I will never understand why any member of the working poor would support republicans/conservative.

I agree w/ pretty much everything you say, but this is the bottom freaking line for me.  I don't get it.   I see so many poor people laid off from their jobs, no health insurance, can't afford COBRA with their unemployment, but they watch Fox news and spout the right wing bs and they're mislead and I don't fucking get it.  What do they think the Republicans will do for them??

All our problems would be solved if we just let the rich get richer and let it trickle down?  REALLY??

we all should have health insurance.  it's bullshit people suffer in our country for as bad ass as we're suppose to be.   universal health care bills have been denied since like 1912.   the british gave their people health care, we didn't.  fuckin commie's. 

[kydiddle]

You're absolutely right, Sticky....the far right is getting more and more conservative. And the American Dream is dying....or at least changing. That's what I did my thesis on...the shift during the 1980s and how we've turned into an instant gratification nation and have completely lost sight of what it means to work hard, make money, and stay out of debt.

I digress.

I suppose my problem with the state of the government today is the amount of money thrown at problems. I don't believe that pumping money into everything works in the long run and creating tremendous debt is going to bite us in the ass big time. HOWEVER...I worry about this less than I do the Republicans who refuse to budge on social issues such as abortion and gay marriage. How archaic is it to deny someone the right to get married?? It's an awful concept. Not to mention the fact that the divorce rate among heterosexual couples is way too high for anyone to make the argument that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. It's ridiculous.

In the words of Bart Simpson: "God schmod...I want my monkey man!!"

[davymac]

all i will do for this topic is quote jim-

Im amazed by a divided nation

and a divided forum   :P

[johnnYYac]

I think we have to expect a forum divided politically.  MMJ is left of center, but mostly apolitical.  And this just shows that some Republicans, despite their flaws, have good taste in music.   ;)

[kydiddle]

I sooooo don't consider myself a Republican.  ???

*unscrews Cobdederate flag license plate from front of pickup*  :P

[Jaimoe]

You're absolutely right, Sticky....the far right is getting more and more conservative. 

Well, any more far right and we're talking fascism.

[darkglow]

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/living/2011/06/19/nr.palin.letter.gilgof.intv.cnn

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

You're absolutely right, Sticky....the far right is getting more and more conservative. 

Well, any more far right and we're talking fascism.

I think both sides are sliding right, especially the democrats.  16percent of the population is atheist/agnostic/unaffiliated and for the most part have no representation.    if there is it's minimal to the point of having absolutely no affect on policy.

that video darkglow posted is a perfect example of how fucking stupid american's are.  yes, it's sad that she has a son with downs.  and yeah, it's nothing that should be made fun of.  but at the same time, I think most mothers have that nurture mentality about a fetus that is growing inside of them.  So when CNN is reporting that both sides empathize with her down syndrome son they're probably right but it has nothing to do with politics or people thinking she's actually intelligent.   that story isn't even news.  I'm not sure what you'd even call that type of story, drivel?  why not use that letter to focus on ALL of the kids in america with down syndrome, according to google 1 out of every 800kids is born with it.  a prime opportunity to educate the public on a health issue that affects so many people in our country is compacted down into a sarah palin story.  It pisses me off big time she is the story and not down syndrome.

[darkglow]

You're absolutely right, Sticky....the far right is getting more and more conservative. 

Well, any more far right and we're talking fascism.

I think both sides are sliding right, especially the democrats.  16percent of the population is atheist/agnostic/unaffiliated and for the most part have no representation.    if there is it's minimal to the point of having absolutely no affect on policy.

that video darkglow posted is a perfect example of how fucking stupid american's are.  yes, it's sad that she has a son with downs.  and yeah, it's nothing that should be made fun of.  but at the same time, I think most mothers have that nurture mentality about a fetus that is growing inside of them.  So when CNN is reporting that both sides empathize with her down syndrome son they're probably right but it has nothing to do with politics or people thinking she's actually intelligent.   that story isn't even news.  I'm not sure what you'd even call that type of story, drivel?  why not use that letter to focus on ALL of the kids in america with down syndrome, according to google 1 out of every 800kids is born with it.  a prime opportunity to educate the public on a health issue that affects so many people in our country is compacted down into a sarah palin story.  It pisses me off big time she is the story and not down syndrome.

Here is Palin's entire letter:

To the Sisters, Brother, Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, and Friends of Trig Paxson Van Palin (or whatever you end up naming him!):

I am blessing you with this surprise baby because I only want the best for you. I've heard your prayers that this baby will be happy and healthy, and I've answered them because I only want the best for you!

I heard your heart when you hinted that another boy would fit best in the Palin family, to round it out and complete that starting five line-up.

Though another girl would be so nice, you didn't think you could ask for what you REALLY wanted, but I knew, so I gave you a boy because I only want the best for you!

Then, I put the idea in your hearts that his name should be 'Trig', because it's so fitting, with two Norse meanings: "True" and "Brave Victory". You also have a Bristol Bay relative with that name, so I knew it would be best for you!

Then, I let Trig's mom have an exceptionally comfortable pregnancy so she could enjoy every minute of it, and I even seemed to rush it along so she could wait until near the end to surprise you with the news - that way Piper wouldn't have so long to wait and count down so many days - just like Christmastime when you have to wait, impatiently, for that special day to finally open your gift? (Or the way the Palmas look forward to birthday celebrations that go on for three, four days_ you all really like cake.) I know you, I knew you'd be better off with just a short time to wait!

Then, finally, I let Trig's mom and dad find out before he was born that this little boy will truly be a GIFT. They were told in early tests that Trig may provide more challenges, and more joy, than what they ever may have imagined or ever asked for.


At first the news seemed unreal and sad and confusing. But I gave Trig's mom and dad lots of time to think about it because they needed lots of time to understand that everything will be OK, in fact, everything will be great, because I only want the best for you!

I've given Trig's mom and dad peace and joy as they wait to meet their new son. I gave them a happy anticipation because they asked me for that.

I'll give all of you the same happy anticipation and strength to deal with Trig's challenges, but I won't impose on you... I just need to know you want to receive my offer to be with all of you and help you everyday to make Trig's life a great one.

This new person in your life can help everyone put things in perspective and bind us together and get everyone focused on what really matters.

The baby will expand your world and let you see and feel things you haven't experienced yet. He'll show you what "true, brave victory" really means as those who love him will think less about self and focus less on what the world tells you is "normal" or "perfect°.

You will grow and be blessed with greater understanding that will he born along with Trig.Trig will be his dad's little buddy and he'll wear Carhartts while he learns to tinker in the garage. He'll love to be read to, he'll want to play goalie, and he'll steal his mom's heart just like Track, Bristol, Willow and Piper did.

And Trig will be the cuddly, innocent, mischievous, dependent little brother that his siblings have been waiting for_in fact Trig will - in some diagnostic ways - always be a mischievous, dependent little brother, because I created him a bit different than a lot of babies born into this world today.

Every child is created special, with awesome purpose and amazing potential. Children are the most precious and promising ingredient in this mixed up world you live in down there on earth. Trig is no different, except he has one extra chromosome. Doctors call it "Down's Syndrome", and Downs kids have challenges, but can bring you much delight and more love than you can ever imagine! Just wait and see, let me prove this, because I only want the best for you!

Some of the rest of the world may not want him, but take comfort in that because the world will not compete for him. Take care of him and he will always be yours!

Trig's mom and dad don't want people to focus on the baby's extra chromosome. They're human, so they haven't known how to explain this to people who are so caring and are interested in this new little Alaskan. Sarah and Todd want people to share in the joy of this gift I'm giving to the Palin family, and the greater Alaska family.

Many people won't understand_ and I understand that. Some will think Trig should not be allowed to be born because they fear a Downs child won't be considered "perfect" in your world. (But tell me, what do you earthlings consider "perfect" or even "normal" anyway? Have you peeked down any grocery store isle, or school hallway, or into your office lunchroom lately? Or considered the odd celebrities you celebrate as "perfect" on t.v.? Have you noticed I make 'em all shapes and sizes? Believe me, there is no "perfect"!)

Many people will express sympathy, but you don't want or need that, because Trig will be a joy. You will have to trust me on this.

I know it will take time to grasp this and come to accept that I only want the best for you, and I only give my best. Remember though: "My ways are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts- for as the heavens are higher than the earth, my ways are higher than yours!"

I wrote that all down for you in the Good Book! Look it up! You claim that you believe me - now it's time to live out that belief!

Please look to me as this new challenge and chapter of life unfolds in front of you. I promise to equip you. I won't give you anything you can't handle. I am answering your prayers. Trig can't wait to meet you. I'm giving you ONLY THE BEST!

Love,
Trig's Creator, Your Heavenly Father