The LOST thread

[Bob Loblaw]

Also, I think at this point they owe us two more answers:

- how the "light" lets one leave/mechanism behind the wheel
- why Carthage/how the other side is where it is

So why does the wheel work after "the light" has been sucked out?

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

yeah bob, I have no idea.  I was just fuckin around calling MiB claudia.  so I guess MiB is satan?  She kept saying she kept Jacob away from the humans so he'd be good.  Did MiB hanging around the humans represent the humans gaining power of the energy?  "they always want more".  Is MiB out to keep the light all for himself?  Is he now a manifestation of all of Man's flaws?  It seems like as soon as he left to go with the men he became corrupted, at least to the weirdo mom.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

also in the episode last week MiB loaded and handed the rifle to jack.  MiB definitely can't kill them.  I'm just wondering who controls the power of that light now that jacobs dead.  

[Bob Loblaw]

yeah bob, I have no idea.  I was just fuckin around calling MiB claudia.  so I guess MiB is satan?  She kept saying she kept Jacob away from the humans so he'd be good.  Did MiB hanging around the humans represent the humans gaining power of the energy?  "they always want more".  Is MiB out to keep the light all for himself?  Is he now a manifestation of all of Man's flaws?  It seems like as soon as he left to go with the men he became corrupted, at least to the weirdo mom.

I think it all goes back to free will and the ability to choose between being good and evil.  There's original sin (or whatever you want to call it) that means we cannot be perfect.  We all have evil and good within us.  That's just part of being human.  Weirdo mom was trying to keep Jakob and MiB away from any other humans so they never realized that they could be bad.  MiB going to hang with the people didn't give them anymore power it just represented the recognition of evil's existence for MiB and Jakob.  More so, that they could "use evil" to get what they wanted, which for MiB is off the island.  The problem is, now MiB has harnessed the energy but it sure as hell hasn't helped him to escape the island.  So what good is it in it's current form?

Jack is "the one".  Does he have to drink from the wine bottle to make it official?  I said before the series will end with Jack as the new Jakob and Locke as MiB talking on the beach just as they were as the Black Rock approached.  Chode pointed out that the writers basically promised more of a payoff then that.  Does that mean then, that the series will end with Jack finding a way to put the black smoke back in the cave and return it to it's prior form as "the light".  At this point, I don't know where else we can go with it.  Even if that does happen, Jack's going to have to stay on the island to protect the light and start looking for new candidates...  That doesn't seem like a proper ending either.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

yeah bob, I have no idea.  I was just fuckin around calling MiB claudia.  so I guess MiB is satan?  She kept saying she kept Jacob away from the humans so he'd be good.  Did MiB hanging around the humans represent the humans gaining power of the energy?  "they always want more".  Is MiB out to keep the light all for himself?  Is he now a manifestation of all of Man's flaws?  It seems like as soon as he left to go with the men he became corrupted, at least to the weirdo mom.

I think it all goes back to free will and the ability to choose between being good and evil.  There's original sin (or whatever you want to call it) that means we cannot be perfect.  We all have evil and good within us.  That's just part of being human.  Weirdo mom was trying to keep Jakob and MiB away from any other humans so they never realized that they could be bad.  MiB going to hang with the people didn't give them anymore power it just represented the recognition of evil's existence for MiB and Jakob.  More so, that they could "use evil" to get what they wanted, which for MiB is off the island.  The problem is, now MiB has harnessed the energy but it sure as hell hasn't helped him to escape the island.  So what good is it in it's current form?

Jack is "the one".  Does he have to drink from the wine bottle to make it official?  I said before the series will end with Jack as the new Jakob and Locke as MiB talking on the beach just as they were as the Black Rock approached.  Chode pointed out that the writers basically promised more of a payoff then that.  Does that mean then, that the series will end with Jack finding a way to put the black smoke back in the cave and return it to it's prior form as "the light".  At this point, I don't know where else we can go with it.  Even if that does happen, Jack's going to have to stay on the island to protect the light and start looking for new candidates...  That doesn't seem like a proper ending either.

to the bolded.  word.  I get he didn't give the humans more power but what I'm thinking is this "light" which respresents life, death, and rebirth is essentially the conscious mind of all humans.  The smoke representing all the evil in the world.  

Jacob talked to MiB as if oblivious to how the humans truly were.  but MiB reiterated that they're bad.  

the whole "there has to be balance" thing is making more sense but that episode for me opened a shitload of more questions than answers.

so the donkey wheel's mechanism harnesses the light and water.   it would make sense why it was frozen when ben when down there.  also a seal that can't be broken.

perhaps Jacob is like captain planet now, wind, earth, fire, water, heart!  yeah I think that's it Jacob is Captain Planet.

[el_chode]

also in the episode last week MiB loaded and handed the rifle to jack.  MiB definitely can't kill them.  I'm just wondering who controls the power of that light now that jacobs dead.  

Alright, so I think we have more of an idea now about what happens if he leaves - it's not that MiB is inherently deadly and if he gets out he's gonna go "seeya fuckers" and like wipe out the earth. It's that if he goes, somethign about that light gets affected. Now, obviously it's how Ben was able to come and go if he had to. So it's not simply turning the wheel that does it, so it must be tied to the smoke.

[dcdub]

Last night's episode kind of blew. The story was lame and cheesey, we still don't know MiB's name, if he even has one. Allison Janney was an odd pick as the crazy mom. I couldn't look past the Juno/10 Things I Hate About You stigma and it was very distracting. It didn't really explain anything except why MiB can turn into the smoke, but it barely even touched on that. "The light farted it out" and that was about as far as it went. Also, I never thought of Jacob as much of a badass, but this episode made him look like a wimpy ass mama's boy.
A few things I did find interesting:
1. Another God/Satan comparison- Crazy mom told MiB that Jacob doesn't know how to lie but that he (MiB) is special. There's a bible scripture that says it is impossible for God to lie, another calls Satan the father of the lie.
2. Just as MiB appeared to Jack and Claire as their father, I think maybe the former MiB was appearing to the MiB we know and love as his real mother, thus recruiting him to the dark side.
3. I'm guessing the dagger MiB used to kill crazy mom with was the same one Dogen gave Sayid to kill MiB with. He sneaked up behind her and stabbed her in the back, not allowing her to speak, just as Dogen directed Sayid.

At least we now kind of now why he wants off the island so badly. His explanation of how he was going to get off was retarded as helll though, it pissed me off. "I'm going to attach that wheel to a system we're building that channels the water and light and when I do I'll finally be able to leave." Makes perfect sense to me! I know not everything in this show makes sense, but that just sounded so freaking dumb.

Overall the episode was a huge disappointment. Maybe in retrospect it will be more meaningful. It seems like it was a big waste of an episode when there was only 3 left

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I'm feeling like there's a duality.. err. dichotomous relation with Jacob/MiB.  The same entity split into two parts.  simply another part of a gigantic system outside the range of our own small minded understanding.  Not Jacob nor MiB understood the island completely while their mother was a live.  

So let's say the island is point A.  the start to the human intellect.

From what it sounded like the chick from the west wing knew what would happen if they went into the golden toilet.  Even after Jacob drank that wine he still had no idea what would happen if he put his other half down the drain.  

The west wing lady said "every question you ask will simply lead to another question no matter what you ask..", when asked who made her she replied "My Mother... and her mother made her, etc".  she also said she landed on the island the same way as prego jacob/mib's mom did.  They were brought there.  The Magnetic Pull.  

I'm assuming the reason Hurley has abilities in the current time line is because he was "born" with ___ amount of extra "energy" that the island is made of.  A natural boost to his awareness.  Same with Miles.  He has more of a phantom memory type thing unlike Hurley's more Dante'esk philosophical way which makes me wonder if it's because Mile's was born on the island during the same time the time jumps occurred.  

The more I think about the episode the more I think they told us a shitload about time travel and the actual system itself.  It pissed me off at first because it wasn't what I had hoped for.  

chode I hear what you're saying about the light.  I think the question is will it go out and will the cycle start all over again.  

It makes more sense now why MiB hasn't appeared as himself.  The only person it seems like he could do that to is Richard since he seems, so far, to be the only person outside of jacob to know what he looks like.  Jacob staying out of sight of people was a good precaution in the sense that if he did die black smoke wouldn't be able to pretend to be Jacob and cheat.

So that's my theory even though Jacob/MiB are not identical I think they are one in the same.  (mmj'd)  One is alive while the other is dead, now MiB in some ways in trapped in the body/mind of john locke?  He has already said he retains the memories of the people he becomes (ie knowing the last words john locke was thinking before ben killed him, etc).

There must be rules to giving people power.  Each care taker of the island is granted so and so powers to give out to make the system work.  Maybe the west wing lady gave MiB some of the powers Jacob was "suppose" to have since he, in the end was the chosen one.

A big question is how Jacob was a loud to leave the island and why MiB can't.  I'm assuming Mom made it so only MiB couldn't leave since she was planning on him staying on the island...

going to crash out.  

as said above that knife is for sure the knife dogan gave sayid and the one MiB gave richard to kill Jacob.  it took the life of the island protector or something?  a powerful knife?

[megalicious]

how did "mother" keep infant jacob and baby mib alive? don't babies need breastmilk? i feel like this is a bigass plot hole.

and the whole jacob v. mib thing boils down to "i hate you b/c mom loved you more?" wow.
>:(

[el_chode]

I wonder why in order to kill whoever smokey is, you can't let them speak. It seems to be more than just their ability to lie.

So is it well settled that "mom" was also a smokey?

I think they had to just explain some things away too, like with that whole "and before my mom there was another" and as the saying goes, it's turtles all the way down. Regardless of whether you go scientific of theologic, what was before the universe or before God is just beyond a simple plot narrative that doesn't just become annoyingly recursive.

With that said, it looks like the roles are also reversed. MiB bases his knowledge of experience and empirical deductions through observations, Jacob is one of faith.

I wonder if Jacob can leave because he's like a full-functioning Desmond. Desmond can't control his mind slipping, but Jacob can, and therefore can be in two places at the same time.

And yet this all brings me back to the Flaming lips - If you could destroy the world with the flip of a switch, would you do it?

The simple fact Jacob says "nonononononono" means he must be good, while MiB's indifference, whether knowing or not, seems like a literary/plot device to show his deviousness.

And lastly, I leave you with Jimmy Kimmel

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfpBFYn-Jxw[/media]

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

that connect four million thing was pretty funny haha.  

[dcdub]

So is it well settled that "mom" was also a smokey?

I don't know what to think about that... She protected the light, so I would think that would make her Jacob's predecessor. On the other hand though she was pretty evil wiping out all of the other people and torching the village and whatnot. Jacob has a bit of that side to him as well though, as we saw when he beat the crap out of MiB and threw him down the light hole. Both were done to protect the island. Crazy mom's response to Jacob's question about what would happen if he went down the light hole seemed to indicate that she knew what would happen, but not whether she knew first or secondhand. She was definitely a crazy bitch either way, but I would have to lean more towards her being the good guy and not a smokey

[Bob Loblaw]

I believe we will learn that one of the most important lines from the last episode is when lil'MiB told his bro' that he could make up the rules when he had his own game...

From the time we ended the episode to the time we see MiB and Jakob on the beach, as the Black Rock approaches, Jakob does indeed create his own game.  The point of the game is to prove that people can do the right thing, make the right decisions, be good even when faced with terrible temptations.  MiB does not believe this is possible and is therefore willing to "take the bet", i.e. agree to Jakob's rules.  Part of these rules are that Jakob picks people who are flawed (as they all are) and brings them to the island.  MiB is able to play the part of the devil all he wants and tempt them but he cannot hurt them.  Jakob continues to be let down by these people and he eventually crosses them off the list as candidates for doing right.  After this, they are no longer protected and MiB gets to do whatever he'd like with them (a la Mr. Eko).  

There are other rules that MiB must follow.  For example, he was basically caged until Ben decided to release him to kill Keemi and his ilk.  While he is caged he basically returns to his form as "the light".  This is what allows the wheel to still work.  If someone were to go down there now it wouldn't because "the light" is not caged, it's walking the island.

Back to the main point though, there is an end.  Jack, the hero from day one, will do what's right.  MiB was so convinced that no one ever would he wagered something big, like his grip on "the light".  Upon Jack making the consciounce(sp) decision, MiB will lose.  How it all plays out, I don't know but that's what we'll see next Sunday.

As for wacko mom being a smokie.  I don't think so.  MiB had to lose his body to gain smokiness.  Wacko mom still had her body (it's now in mausoleum next to MiB's body in the cave).

Now, the biggest question I have is whether or not smokie is MiB.  If he is, he's definitely the first smokie.  Did "the light" use MiB to become smokie or did MiB use "the light" to become smokie?  If you think about it, it's possible that the conversation between MiB and Jakob as the Black Rock approached didn't even involve MiB.  It was just the smokie appearing to Jakob as his dead brother just as smokie is appearing to the Losties now as John Locke.  Just as the Losties now know, Jakob knew then, we didn't.  I say this because their relationship during that conversation seemed much different than anything we saw during the last episode.  Regardless, they were brothers and they loved each other.  It didn't seem that way with the conversation on the beach.  Plus, at that point, Jakob was bringing more people to the island and MiB didn't want him to.  Is this a conflict with what MiB wanted when he was alive?  He wanted to be with humans, Jakob didn't.

A whole lot has happened since MiB died and the Black Rock landed.  That's where the real story lies...

[doctorinthehouse]

how did "mother" keep infant jacob and baby mib alive? don't babies need breastmilk? i feel like this is a bigass plot hole.

>:(

I wondered that as she caved the mother's head in.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I'm not sure if I buy into MiB being both the "light" and the smoke.  that would contradict the 6 years of light vs dark.  Though I do agree with the "this is jacob's game" to some degree I think the "rules" Jacob made are only part of it since there are already rules ingrained in the island so to speak.   Their crazy mom had already implemented certain things Jacob/MiB could do.  Ala his wacko mom being the one who makes it so MiB can never leave.  Jacob for sure can leave or at least appear in the outside world.  MiB not so much I do not believe.

When locke turned the wheel and christian told him to say what up to Jack, locke was asking him to help him turn the wheel.  Ghost Christian was all "I can not help you", even after locke fell down the well and f'd his legs up.   So I really don't think MiB can be both the light and the smoke since the light is essentially what transferred lockes body?  

I think ben was aloud to use the smoke to kill keemy because he was using smokie as a weapon.  There are no rules for ben really, maybe some minor rules but he seems to do whatever the fuck he wants.  So maybe just the fact that he willed the smoke monster to kill keamy was enough?  who knows.

MiB has never liked humans, he simply uses them to get what he wants.  even when he was a kid the only reason he went to them was to help him leave and they fucked him over for 30years making him dig wells and what not.  

When MiB entered the light I think it was almost a jesus like event.  The light was cleansed of all previous "sin" or corruption.  The only problem is now it's loose on the island trying to escape.  

I think we need to think of the light as the ultimate.  the center.  simply a force beyond full understanding.  something so powerful that neither of these god like men can truly control it's full power, nor could that wacked out mom.  The wacked out mom did thank MiB for killing her.  This could be for tons of reasons, she could have been alive for thousands of years, she could have been playing her own game, using Jacob and MiB as her own chess pieces.  Giving MiB the game in the first place, planting that idea in his head. "you make the rules" "oh of course I know about the game, I left it there for you".  

The mom pushed these two into this current situation.  She set it up from day one.  

The other thing is traffic to the island.  Since, we can assume, the beginning of time people have found their way to the island.  It is meant for men to find it otherwise it wouldn't let them?  If the island itself, the light is a form of consciousness it makes more sense how the rules are regulated.  

I'm thinking this shit has something to do with Loki and maybe this dude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdallr

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

how did "mother" keep infant jacob and baby mib alive? don't babies need breastmilk? i feel like this is a bigass plot hole.

>:(

I wondered that as she caved the mother's head in.

they live on an island made out of God, I'm sure they found a teet to suck on.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

also, when Jacob threw MiB into the light he was unconscious, possibly even dead already.   I definitely think the smoke is only partially Jacob's brother, similar to how it is only partially john locke.  He has his memories, he looks like him but he also contains other souls or personalities or who knows what.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I watched "expose" the nikki and paulo episode for the first time since it aired a minute ago because I remember the producers saying it's important.

It was interesting watching it now knowing what's up with MiB.  When Nikki refers to the spider she says it's name is the "Medusa spider" because it paralyzes ya.  the black smoke is heard but not seen.  I believe he takes the form of the spiders to paralyze them.  in turn Sawyer, Hurley, and Co.  Bury them alive = kill them.  MiB got the losties to murder each other in all sorts of ways.  They made it seem like karma at the time but in was more of a move by the black smoke.  

also vincent pulls the sheet off of the paulo and nikki when they are laying on the beach as if to say "yo they're alive don't bury these foo's I'm jacob".

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

alright so I just watched eko's last episode again.  had a question and wanted to hear your take on it.  So the black smoke doesn't actually kill Eko.  He slams him against the trees, ground, etc.  If he's not aloud to kill them no matter what did john locke kill him by turning him over/moving him ala if they wouldn't have messed with the bomb it wouldn't have exploded.

if eko would have been by himself would he have stood a better chance of survival?  he could just lay there and let jacob or the island or light or whatever the fuck heal him.

Locke saw the light.  He saw the source, that is what convinced him I think.  Since we know his first encounter with the "thing" was not the black smoke it was the light the weirdo mom hid.  

Yemmies body was taken just like Christians.  Eko was given yemmie's cross via locke and then MiB all touched it smiling right before Eko was going to repent and then he didn't and MiB's face changed to mad pissed off.  I think MiB was trying to recruit Eko then right?  like the temple, those who don't follow will be killed?

It seems like Jacob wanted MiB to use locke the way he did.  Locke was the only person Jacob apologizes to also.  "I'm sorry this happened to you..." but when it came to ben he was all "what about you? " -stab-

In the same episode they have jack trapped in the underwater facility on hydra island, I believe Jacob tries to get Jake to kill Ben.  I think Jacob always knew there'd be risks.  Ben wasn't on a list, Richard took him there out of desperation or some bs.  

Jack almost did kill Ben during surgery but changed his mind or something.   not sure didn't re-watch that ep.  Juliet was all "some of us want a change..." "we need to make it look like we tried to save him..."etc.  

"Two Birds, One Stone"-John Locke