The Most Capable Band

[The Boar]

I don't know if this "darkness" is necessarily the essence of the band, though I definitely understand what is meant by it. I think any band's ethic or essence or what have you is the creative embodiment or expression of their experiences and their emotions.  As has been oft repeated, with time, those experiences/emotions change and thus the tone of the creative output changes.

I listen to "It's About Twilight Now" and "I Will Sing You Songs" -- better yet, "I Will Be There When You Die" and "I Will Sing You Songs" -- and I hear the same ethic/tone but completely different sounds. I don't think that the essence of MMJ's sound is some darkness -- rather it is an honesty of the conveyance of emotion and a significance of that emotion, an essence lacking in so much of popular music.

Ultimately, to argue the techniques or effects of the music's production seems silly to me, and ignorant of the larger creative effort of a band. To declare that such music is somehow not genuine because attempts are made (through mixing, mastering, overdubbing, added musicians, what have you) to clarify that emotional conveyance is, I think, naive and snobbish. Even worse, however, is to limit one's acceptance of a band's creative vision to one's own personal music tastes -- to demand their output always be melancholic and dark, for example, because that is what you enjoy.

Sure, you may not care for such "overproduction" in the music of a band like Radiohead -- maybe it doesn't fit your groove, your concept of pure, in-the-moment music. But hopefully you can understand why they are doing it -- to clarify the honesty and efficacy of their creative output. And the fact that MMJ seems to feel a similar desire in their latest work -- the fact that they feel a similar need to clarify and perfect their creative vision -- should be a reason to commend them, and not detract.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Ultimately, to argue the techniques or effects of the music's production seems silly to me, and ignorant of the larger creative effort of a band. To declare that such music is somehow not genuine because attempts are made (through mixing, mastering, overdubbing, added musicians, what have you) to clarify that emotional conveyance is, I think, naive and snobbish

ding ding ding!  we have a winner!  my sentiments exactly, thank you for the marvelous post.  is this going to turn into lo-fi vs. hi-fi?

[Jacket Dementia]

Like I said, everyone left of their own accord, so no one is an asshole for firing anyone, as far as I can tell.

I'm fairly certain the first two drummers were uninvited. I know one of them was.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

I'm fairly certain the first two drummers were uninvited. I know one of them was.

okay...I give up.  speculation into the private lives of folks is just not cool.  whatever.  believe Jim is a pirate captain who runs his ship like Hornblower and fires members at will, or has them walk the plank, or whatever the fantasy is at the moment.  christ!  this shit happened a long time ago.

and as for "knowing", if you do "know", I can safely bet you're full of shit.  there, I said it.

[havibulin]

Damn, you guys think too much.

[EC]

John said pirates.  arrrrrrrrr.

And Boar, what a terrific, well-written post that was.  Applause to you.

[Oz]

Even worse, however, is to limit one's acceptance of a band's creative vision to one's own personal music tastes -- to demand their output always be melancholic and dark, for example, because that is what you enjoy.

I think everyone does that in a way. I wouldn't, however, put it that harsh. It's simply a fact that when you like a band because of what they do and then they're doing something completely different that you might think 'hmm, this sucks'. Ofcourse! As for me, yes, I still like the old lo-fi stuff a little bit better then ISM. Not because I think it's necessarily purer, just because I like the lo-fi sound, the cracks, just that sound. Because it pleases my ears. Now, I happen to also really really like ISM and I totally understand that bands grow, so hey, that's cool. Their sound changed, but the essence - Jims voice, the songs, the type of lyrics, a certain feel - remained the same, so I accept and appreciate the changes. However, if the next MMJ sound would be an instrumental hardcore techno album, fuck it, then this is not my band anymore. Now what's wrong with that?

Let me say it once again, for me, the reason because I like lo-fi is not ethical, but esthetical. If that's correct English. :) Don't ask me why, but I just love that sound more than I love a more polished sound. I like it when you hear a song recorded on a tape recorder and you can hear the record/stop-sounds. I like hearing those noises in the beginning of 'I will be there...' Maybe in a way I somehow feel that that's more honest, but in the end that's crap, I just like it because I like it.  :)

[marktwain]

Word, O.  (Really good English, too - but it's "aesthetic."  I don't know why that a is there.)

I think some of us do like the lo-fi sound because it seems more authentic.  hisses, pops, and crackles are good noises. My brother says he wants to start his band's next cd with the sound of a needle dropping on a record.

But I also REALLY like the horns on ISM.  

I believe Jim is the brains of the band - he tells it where it's going.  The other guys are the body - they keep it going.  As members of the band change, so will the sound - I think all 3 drummers had very distinct styles, all of which I like, and Carl and Bo have brought new styles to the band as well. But as long as Jim is at the helm, MMJ will have the same core sound and will be the same band.

Of course, we'll see how this plays out with the new album - Carl Hungus is a songwriter, right?  Maybe he'll contribute some tunes, or maybe he likes the direction the band is going in and will let Jim keep control.

I don't know.  It's only rock and roll.  (But I like it.)

[EC]

(Yes I do!)

[wordawg]

 Ultimately, it's a fine line between repetition and reinvention...so far, I can't see any repetition, just reinvention with the Jacket;  each record is uniquely its own being.

Completely agree JC, and I think thats one of the bands most important assets. Line-up changes, sounds changes.  I think that's the way it should be.
Progression.

Word.

[Oz]

dear spoon,

there is this crazy thing that happens as the years go by...  people grow up - they change - they move forward - they evolve.

clearly this is a concept that has escaped you.  

how sad for you that you live in a world of five years ago.  and how pathetic that you can't forgive these guys who you don't even seem to know for moving on with their own lives and music.

if you love winter death club so much what do you have against tommy?  he was in that band.  did he sleep with your girlfriend or something?  kopilot is hiring?  you're an asshole.

I'm pretty surprised nobody commented on this guy. Or gal, ofcourse. He/she talks almost like an insider. This wasn't Jim in some pissed off mood, was he? Hmm...

[Oz]

Oh, and EC, I forgot to respond, mainly because I was a little, err, flabbergasted. :)

You honestly love Ringo's songs?  ???

Well. Then I have little left to say.  ;D ;)

[Oz]

May I start working towards a conclusion for this topic that would be something like 'Hey, it's all good!', or should we wait a little longer?  :)

[lfish]

Man this is an interesting post, in which I like to share my humble opinion.

I can't make any judgement on Bo or Carl because I don't had the chance (yet) to hear, see or met them.

But this is what I know.

The Jacket was and still is a great group with some very original ideas.  Fact is, Jim's the masterbrain in this group.  He's a great songwriter and guitarist.  But a band is nothing without a good back-up. If jim's the brain, patrick and tommy are definitely the lungs of the group.  I don't have a metaphore for Carl and Bo (yet) for the reason I mentionned above. But maybe we can refer to them as the feet of the group.  They just joined in and they have new ideas and a new style of playing, so... maybe they can take the group to new horizons.

Frankly I believe that there will be other line-up changes, but the only thing that counts for the jacket is the music.  And that's why I have good faith if changes occur.


Rock on.

[BIG VIC]

If you hate the horns does that mean you also hate "Ring of Fire?" a little brass never hurt anyone.

[hazeyjane]

I'm pretty surprised nobody commented on this guy. Or gal, ofcourse. He/she talks almost like an insider. This wasn't Jim in some pissed off mood, was he? Hmm...

I rarely post to this forum but feel a great need to do so on this snowy Christmas Eve.  I would not doubt that "Guest:  po" was a pissed off Jim and he would have every right to be, having to defend his friends against a so called fan.  Spoon, why are you so mean?  And so close to Chirstmas.  Shame.  Your "cute" little sly comments don't make you amusing, they make you an, and I quote, "asshole."  This whole stand of comments is so frustrating to me.  I know I have changed a lot during the four years I have been listening to mmj (thank God) so why would anyone assume the guys haven't, especially after all they've been through.  I have a feeling that these days are difficult ones for the guys and we true fans out there should support them, not throw ignorant remarks onto their forum board.  Support and trust.  I trusted them when I heard they were moving to a major label, I even trusted them when I heard them on damn bad beer commercial, and I will continue to trust and support them through all the line up changes.  It's been four years and they've never let me down.  NEVER.  I love them all equally.  Nicest guys ever.  Merry friggin Christmas.      

[EC]

You honestly love Ringo's songs?

Yep.  They're usually silly and evoke really vivid pictures in my head.

[Spoon]

I think it's funny how many times I've been called an asshole in this topic - it might have even hurt my feelings if I wasn't such a snob.  And Tommy did sleep with my girlfriend.  What of it?  We're close like that.

But anyway, my original post was attempting to tease out the double meaning of Jim saying this is "The Most Capable" incarnation of the Jacket.  It is a compliment to the present line-up, sure, but it is also an insult to past members - some of whom haven't said the nicest of things about the band since leaving.  Go figure.

Now this second meaning might have been unintentional, fine, but I'm still sitting here chewing on my original question.  Is this even "The Most Capable" incarnation of the Jacket?  

I ask because I'm curious to know what you all think.  I'm not much of a musician myself, so some of the finer points of musicianship might be lost on me.  On one level, it's as straightforward as that.  Is Bo a better keyboardist than Danny?  Is Carl a better guitarist than Johnny?  Is Patrick a better drummer than J. or Chris?  Is Tommy a good bassist?    

Now this led us to some ancilliary questions - Are Carl and Bo session musicians?  Is the Jacket the Jim James show?  Can (and will) Patrick or Tommy be replaced as easily?  

We even had a nice sidebar conversation about the merits of production styles.  

Now somehow O and Tundra say the same types of things and yet manage to dodge that "asshole" bullet.  I'll puzzle over that one for a while (But I'll be damned if you'll get me to use the puzzled smiley).

I think PO, which I'm guessing is short for "pissed off" and who I'm hoping is not Jim incognito as was suggested, has misinterpreted my comments as an attack on Tommy (hence being PO'd), which was not my intention.  

For the record, I think Tommy is the shit.  I think he's an integral piece of the Jacket's sound and is an all around nice guy to boot.  But I also thought that Krist Noveselec was the greatest bassist that ever lived when I was fourteen because I didn't know any better.  

In fact, I still don't know any better to be honest, I just know that I've since been told that Krist is not a very "capable" bassist.  Now to show my cards - to be honest Krist not being "The Most Capable" bassist doesn't change my opinion of his playing.  I still think he's great and frankly I think that were he to have been replaced it would have been slim consolation to know his replacement was a better technical musician.  

---------------------
Oh, and about the Kopilot joke...

I like the thought of Danny and Tommy working together in Kopilot - it makes me smile.  In my fever dreams, Kopilot is the retirement resort of former Jacket members.  You leave the Jacket and you wake up in a bed in the middle of the store like in the Wizard of Oz - and Danny's there and Johnny's there and Chris is there and J. is there and Auntie Em and even little Toto.  They all work in Kopilot and end up starting a rival band to the Jacket called the Ugly Doll Kopilots - just like "The Misfits" from the Jem cartoon or the Chipettes from the Chipmonks cartoon. ;D

          

[Oz]

It's funny that you mentioned me, spoon, because I was starting to worry that Jim, if it's really him, hates me too, now. :(

[Coltrane]

Ok, here's the LAST word on this subject...whenever a band changes their line-up, including MMJ, just think of Miles Davis (or any jazz great, but Miles specifically) and the two greatest bands of all time-- the two incarnations of his quintet and the line-ups in between. Each band, whether with Coltrane and Bill Evans and Philly Joe, or with Herbie Hancock and Tony Williams and Wayne Shorter, was amazing!!! Miles asked these guys to join and follow his direction, but at the same time bring their own unique style. They were going to play Miles' music for sure, but he wanted them to bring something to the table (hell, just like John Cassavettes...he wrote a script, but he got upset when an actor didn't bring their own creativity with them). So in the end, you have two completely different bands that are great in their own way, but with one amazing thing in common---that trumpet!!!! To hear the first band play "So What" and the second band play it-- it's two different songs, neither better or worse, but amazingly different! I trust Jim like I would have trusted Miles were I around back then. If Miles or Jim says this guy can play "like a motherfucker," then I'm going to just sit back and listen to the band grow and change and love every minute!!!

did any of that make any sense??!?!? it did when in my head.....

oh, and Krist Noveselic IS a great bass player!